Why Does Spending Time in Nature Make Us Happier?

Jennifer (05s): Hey Monica. 

Monica (06s): Hey Jennifer 

Jennifer (07s); Monica. Tell us about our guest today. She's a very ending expert on the benefits nature for our mental health. And she's also really good friend of ours. 

Monica (16s): That is right. So today we're talking with Florence Williams, she's a journalist, author, podcaster, and her bestselling book, The Nature Fix: Why Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative uncovers the science behind why mental health benefits so strongly from time spent in the natural world. She's also the writer and host of two Gracie award winning audible original series. The first one's called Breasts Unbound, which I highly recommend. And then The Three Day Effect, as well as she's doing the podcast for Outside Magazine, Double X Factor in her new book, Heartbreak, a personal and scientific journey. 

Florence is now venturing into the wilderness to explore the emotion of a heartbreak, and that book will be available for pre-order now and will be out early 2022, which we're looking forward to. 

Jennifer (1m 2s): Yeah, I can't wait for that one. This is such a great conversation with Florence. We really delve into the reasons why we feel so good after spending time outside something I'm obviously very passionate about and why sound is such an important, but often overlooked aspect of our wellbeing. 

Monica (1m 17s): All right. So without further ado, let's get to our chat with Florence Williams. 

Jennifer (1m 28s): Well, hello Florence. How are you? 

Florence (1m 31s): Hello, Jennifer. 

Monica (1m 34s): We're so excited to have you. 

Jennifer (1m 37s): I know it's been so long. I was training the last time the three of us were actually physically together. Was that April, 2019, I think maybe?

Florence (1m 42s): Yes. Or maybe even before that. I dunno. There's, there's been a lot going on in the world. 

Jennifer (1m 48s): So happy to have you here though. 

Monica (1m 52s): I think it was the, at the end of the Biophilic Leadership Conference, which was ages ago. Yes. Florence was our artist in residence and author who came and spoke about her book, which we're gonna talk about today as well, called the Nature Fix among other things. We all became fast friends and can't get enough of each other. So we're thrilled to have you on today with us on biophilic solutions. 

Florence (2m 23s): It's great to be here. I have very fond memories of being productive, but it was also, it was fun and productive. So it was good. 

Monica (2m 33s): Those are the best, the best trips. So we're thrilled to have you here, you sit within this wheelhouse of Jennifer's so much, but also everything that sort of, we espouse at Serenbe and biophilic Institute. So kind of want to just like jump right in and you know, your book, The Nature Fix has been out for quite some time now since 2017. And we'll dig into that a little bit, but I want to start off by like, how did you get interested nature, where did it all start? 

Florence (3m 03s): Yeah, that's a good question because it, it seemed like an unlikely match at first. I mean, I, I grew up actually in New York City and you know, I, I loved Central Park. I loved Riverside Park. I grew up in between those two parks. It was the seventies, it was the eighties. You know, kids were sort of allowed to roam around on their own. I mean, I love cities, but I also love nature. And actually my parents were divorced. And so my dad had custody of me every summer and we would load up into this van, put canoes on the roof and drive out west or drive down south. 

And we would spend like a month running rivers and camping in the van. So I was very much this wilderness slash city girl. And I, I still am that, which is interesting. 

Jennifer (3m 53s): That’s why I love you, you know that.

Florence (3m 55s): Yeah, I think they tend to find each other. It's a great combo. That's what I, you know, and then after college, I got my first job in Colorado working for a newspaper in a small town in the Rockies and I loved it. And I, and I, I didn't leave the Rockies again for, you know, 20, 20 years. And so it just became part of my kind of my DNA to go for walks in the woods and go for walks in the mountains and, you know, go biking. And, you know, I guess I, I just didn't even realize how much I needed that and appreciated it until my family moved to Washington DC. And that happened in 2012. And that's when you know, this kind of stress bomb, I would say exploded in my brain. 

You know, all of a sudden I was in this like big, noisy, you know, sort of gray city with all these traffic circles, traffic jams, and I started to really think more about, you know, the ways that our external landscapes get reflected in our internal landscapes. And then at that exact moment that I moved, Outside magazine approached me and said, can you write about the science of why we feel good being outside? And I was like, yes, because I am thinking a lot about that right now. 

Like what is, what is nature deficit disorder, you know? And, and is there science behind that idea? You know, it's not, it's not a diagnosis that's kind of officially recognized by the medical community, but I think, you know, we can sort of understand what it means intuitively and it turns out, you know, even in 2013 there was a lot of science going on. And of course, even more since then.

Monica (5m 40s): When did Richard Lou's book come out with that sort of first coinage of nature deficit disorder. I'm trying to remember. 

Florence (5m 50s): Yeah, it was actually 2006. Okay. So it was a while ago and, you know, a ton had happened kind of in the academy, looking at these questions and actually outside the academy too, in, in places like just clinical practices, you know, adventure programs, sports therapy, nature therapy, you know, a lot of this stuff was, was sort of taking off on the clinical side, you know, a little bit and even more, of course, since since 2012-13.

Jennifer (6m 23s): I love that because to share with you really quickly is the fact that besides Richard Lou and diving into his work early on for myself, your book in 2017 was the first book that I really kind of dove into with like open eyes, being a New Yorker and loving nature, I really kind of, your book resonated so deeply with me. And I remember sharing with everyone saying, this is it like, this is, this is the why we need to, your book really helped me get on that path of wanting to study more and wanting to learn more and find that science like you saw, like you noticed that there was science that was being developed and studied and shared and so exponentially so much more so since then. 

Florence (7m 3s): Yes. I'm so glad to hear that. That's great, Jennifer. 

Monica (7m 5s): It's true. Well, one of the things in your book you talk about is the biophilia effect and obviously on biophilic solutions and being part of the Institute, like it's something that we're super passionate about. And so I feel like you were an early spokesperson for it, if you will, by having, you know, thinking about it in the book. Can you tell us a little bit about how you define the biophilia effect? 

Florence (7m 35s): Yeah, you know, I mean, in the book, I was really trying to address the questions of, okay. Once we have figured out, you know, through the science and through anecdotes and elsewhere, that nature does make us feel good. You know, the interesting question is why, you know, what's going on there? What is it about nature? What is it about our nervous systems? You know, that responds to that. And of course, it's, it's really hard to figure that out. And I don't think we have figured it out. It's a multifaceted answer, but I was really drawn to some of the theory, you know, driving the research and the biophilic, you know, the biophilia hypothesis is really something that was popularized by the Harvard entomologist, EO Wilson. 

And he looks a lot at, you know, human biological evolution and, and, you know, evolutionary behavior. And, you know, what he has sort of articulated so clearly is that as an animal, humans have evolved for 99% of our history outside. And so it makes sense that our nervous systems are sort of aligned that we get in natural landscapes. So for example, you know, our perceptual system, we know how to read a natural landscape subconsciously we know how to look for things that are life-giving and, you know, generative and restorative. 

We know how to see that, you know, blue water means safety and that green trees mean, you know, fruit and things like that. And, and also safety refuge, sort of this idea of refuge and prospect that, you know, we, we descended, you know, from, from apes, you know, we still have this kind of arboreal, you know, instinct alive and well in us. Many of us feel safe, not everybody because culture of course, you know, has factored in to sort of which landscapes really sing to us, you know, on an emotional level. 

But so you see the biophilia hypothesis is really that we have this innate affinity for living things. It's just wired into our brains and our nervous systems, even on a very subconscious level. And so that when we go outside in a, in a pleasant, you know, natural environment, we feel sort of at home there, even if we can't really articulate why. And so, you know, at the end of the day of spending a lot of time outside, you know, we may feel just calmer and may feel more relaxed. 

Our energy reserves, you are not completely depleted in, in the way that they are when we spend a day in the city, you know, or in the office. I think what’s so interesting about, about our nervous systems. You know, when we're in a city, even though we may feel like, oh, this is alive. And I feel vital here, and it's, it's choosy and great brains are actually working really hard to filter out all the stimulation. We can only take in so much. And so, you know, if you think about it, when you're crossing an intersection, you know, on Broadway or whatever, like you have to focus in on some things you have to focus in on the taxi cab, that's like careening towards you’re not necessarily noticing the clouds in that particular moment, or, you know, a noxious smell, you know, from a garbage can, you know, we're, we're just filtering out so much so that we could focus on what we need to focus on. 

And, and that act of filtration is actually really taxing. It's exhausting. And so at the end of the day, we're sort of grumpy and we don't even really know why. Right.

Jennifer (11m 14s): I love that because you're right. It's our nervous system really trying to find that balance of protecting ourselves from that environment when we're supposed to be outside. But I think that's really interesting that you've also talked about is this, you know, we read that benefits of being outdoors in nature, even if we don't enjoy the time being outside in nature. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? 

Florence (13m 26s): Sure. Yeah. I was interested in studies that measured things like, you know, cognitive load and attention span, you know, when people go for walks outside, you know, and it's pretty well established that, that actually we do perform better on tests, our working memory is better. Our attention span is better after we take this little sort of break by being outside and letting our kind of sensory brains kick in and our cognitive brains sort of dial down for a little while, like even 30 or 40 minutes. 

But the interesting thing is that even when people take those studies, they, they, they do the cognitive studies after being in a miserable, you know, sort of climate environment or a miserable weather where like in Michigan, there was a study, you know, and it was winter and it was windy and nobody really wanted to go out. But, you know, the amazing thing is when they got back into the lab and took those tests, they still performed just as well. You know, as if it had been a nice day. So it's sort of good for us. It's like, you know, it's like the broccoli problem, it may not be the first thing you grab in the cupboard or in the refrigerator, but it's good for us. 

Monica (14m 38s): Interesting. We, we had like a group of women here at Serenbe that, you know, in the winter, we were trying to walk every weekend just to get out. Right. It's sort of, we were still in the depth of the pandemic and quote unquote locked down, but it felt like we could all walk outside safely. And I remember one day it was pretty much pouring rain and we all decided to still do the walk and we just sort of geared up, right. We got the boots on and the rain coats and went out and it was, we were just dressed properly. 

And it kind of was amazing even though, right. And so I hold that like, experience so close to my heart because I didn't really want to go out, but I love these women. And so in, you know, obviously it sort of became this great experience, even though again, the inclement weather or, you know, oh, you don't go out in the rain, but it's just water. So it's changing your mindset a little bit and having that incentive. And for me, it was, it was this group of women that got me out. 

I have a couple of tips about that. I mean, one is that, you know, I love a good hood, you know, outer, I believe in outerwear. And with a good hood, you don't feel that the wind isn't quite as, you know, annoying, and in fact you can feel pretty protected and, you know, it's just, you don't have the annoyance of the wind. And then the other is I, I believe in this sort of 15 minute effect, which is that, you know, mostly as humans, we have trouble with the transitions, you know, it's sort of like going from the warm couch and the bowl of popcorn, you know, out into the bad weather. But, but once you're out for 15 minutes, right. That's kind of the magic number, then we're like, oh my God, it's great out here. I don't even want to go back. And so we just keep going. And so I feel like, you know, if you can just get yourself out there for 15 minutes, then you get over the hump and you start to actually really love it out there. 

Monica (16m 36s): Well, I love the thing I believe in good outerwear really is it, it's not bad weather, it's bad clothing. 

Florence (14m 53s): But I will say there is a caveat Monica to this and that I'm really feeling a lot this summer. And I think probably a lot of people are, which is that, you know, the smoke, the smoke and the heat, you know, we are in a climate, a bit of a climate apocalypse. It feels like, and that is one time where it really does not feel good to be outside. You know, when it's that hot, it's that smoky, you know, our, our also our nervous systems are really primed to freak out, you know, when the air is filled with smoke. And so that's when it doesn't feel safe and it doesn't feel helpful. 

And unfortunately, you know, it feels like we're sort of ever launching into a world, you know, that's going to have these challenges in it, you know, which is also why, when it is nice out, we need to take advantage of that. It sort of, renews our, you know, our energy to be activists and, you know, to kind of find enough personal restoration, you know, that we can sort of go back in to making the world a better place because we have to. 

Monica (17m 52s): Yeah, no. And I, and I think a big part of, and I feel like this was either, maybe in an article you wrote or in the book, but, you know, I think you made a comment about like, you know, we, as a, as a whatever society kind of devalue nature, potentially because we don't spend enough time in it. Or we think that we have to go to Yosemite to get the experience that we need. Right. That really it is in, you know, your Piedmont Park here in Atlanta or Central Park or Riverside Park. 

Like you can get that experience there, or just a fabulous tree lined street, but obviously we need the climate to cooperate and not have smoke in 110 degree days which is a whole nother conversation. But I do think the first step in order to say that, like, we need to protect this or, you know, keep the degrees down, et cetera, et cetera, is to value 

Jennifer (18m 45s): And value it. Absolutely. 

Florence (18m 47s): Yes. And, and value ourselves and know that if we're suffering from burnout and we're stressed out, you know, sort of works both ways, you know, we can help nature by being outside, but nature can help us kind of get into the frame of mind where we want to be generous. 

Monica (19m 7s): Well, and talk about that. Cause there's two sides of it that year. A lot of your study and work has been around happiness and you did really do some cool experiments on yourself, as well as the, you know, pull it into the book to talk about that a little bit. 

And then I'd love you to touch on. You were about to start talking, I think about awe, but I'd love to hear like some of the happiness research that you've done, like choose any of it. I mean, there's so many great ones. I love the, where you put the, the hood on the head, the helmet that had all the sensors on it. But like, tell me about some of the stuff, because I think that's what we also need to realize is it affects our nervous system and, and it can have some real negative impacts down the line, whether that's noise pollution, but talk, talk a little bit about happiness. 

Florence (19m 56s): Sure. Yeah. And, you know, as a science journalist, I want to make the science really accessible. And I do that sometimes by being personal by, you know, sometimes being incorporating some humor, you know, I want to sort of guide my readers along. Yeah. And so I do sometimes in my books use myself as kind of a proxy for some of the science that's going on. And so one of the experiments I did for this book, as you mentioned, was I would put on this kind of helmet, which is a EEG, portable EEG cap for electroencephalography and it measures brainwaves. 

And so I wore that in different environments. I wore it on city streets. I wore it in city parks. I wore it deep into the wilderness. And, and then, you know, various algorithms would sort of analyze the data to say, oh yes, you, you achieved an alpha state kind of a desirable brain state, or, you know, you, you dial down some of your cognitive load in your prefrontal cortex, which is also something that you kind of want to see because it means that you're resting your thinking brain and then allowing other more, maybe introspective or creative or sensory parts of your brain to come online. 

And so, you know, one of the things we were looking for was alpha waves and I was not able to achieve alpha waves in a city park. Although, you know, there are other benefits to being in a city park, but, but that's sort of like real sort of calm alert phase. Didn't didn't turn on for me, but it did turn on when I was on a lake in Maine in the middle of nowhere. And I couldn't hear human sounds. And also when I was, you know, sort of deep in the wilderness in Montana, I was able to get those, those, those brainwave states. 

And I know from the book and from my research too, that I am someone who's very sensitive to human noise, like airplanes and, you know, traffic, those things really annoy me. Some people I think can kind of, you know, filter them out better. Although, you know, studies have shown that even when we're asleep at night and we think we're sleeping through these sounds, our nervous systems are actually responding. So a little bit of, you know, cortisol or stress hormones might get released even when we're asleep, when an airplane flies overhead, which is why probably people who live under the flight paths of major urban airports, like in places like Germany, where these studies have been done, actually have higher rates of cardiovascular disease, anxiety medication. 

There are learning decrements associated with schools that are under these flight paths. So even when we think we adjust these noises, our bodies are actually processing them in, you know, kind of a threat based way. 

Jennifer (23m 03s): That's incredible. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Florence (23m 04s): Noise pollution is a, is a much it's, it's kind of a well, it's a, it's a silent threat. I mean, that's, it's an invisible threat, I would say. Right. 

Jennifer (23m 11s): So not just the planes overhead, but what other would you think are the noise things that we don't think about that are actually affecting our health? Because then we know that sounds of nature, like bird sounds and a waterfall and an ocean water and crackling leaves are really good for us. So what are the other things that we should be thinking about when we're indoors or walking down the street that might be affecting our overall health.

Florence (23m 34s): Well, you know, the, I've talked about the, sort of the, the negative side of human sounds, but there are, as you mentioned, a lot of positive benefits of nature, nature sounds. And so if you can walk on a street that has more trees, you know, you're going to hear more birds and also some of the traffic sounds might be muffled. If there are parks in your city that are quieter than other parks, you know, by all means, if you're after stress reduction, then you might want to head for those parks. 

You might want to take a break, you know, from a busy day, by being someplace quiet, very helpful. And if you, like I do, if you to work in a city, that's under a flight path, I'm under the flight path of Reagan national airport. You might want to think about, you know, wearing noise, canceling headphones or piping in bird sounds, you know, into your sort of work morning or into your routine. There's some really interesting studies showing that schools, the classrooms that pipe in Birdsong in the afternoon, as opposed to classrooms that don't, the classrooms that have the Birdsong, the kids are sort of more, they pay more attention. 

They're more alert. They're a little more relaxed. And also views, you know, views out outside of trees. You know, there, there are lots of ways you can try to tap into these benefits of nature, even from a city and from your house or apartment. 

Jennifer (25m 15s): Sorry, one quick thing because just touching on that, because I live in New York city and I get to see, you know, people, the flights coming into LaGuardia and JFK, but since COVID, I started putting bird seed on my window sill. So now all the doves all day long and I, and it's really, really funny cause my mom just visited the past few and she's like, oh my gosh, I can hear doves on your windows. So I'm like, I know, isn't it cool. So now I have these doves just living on my windows still. And it's just like, it's been, wow, what a great idea, 11 floors up. I never knew that that would actually happen, but it's been absolutely delightful. 

Florence (25m 51s): Oh, wow. That's much better than piping it into your app.

Jennifer (25m 53s): I do that sometimes too at night, but sorry Monica, go ahead. 

Monica (25m 55s): No, no, no, no, I was gonna say you know, biophilic design, we had Bill Browning on who you know of, and um, you know, it is fascinating of what you can do from an interior design perspective to bring nature inside that's beneficial. And he had some really interesting school studies as well, of what could help the kids be more focused. 

I think, you know, paying attention, you know, I think some of them even did better on tests. 

Florence (26m 33s): Right. Exactly, exactly. That's right. And they healed better, you know, from medical problems. But I also, I have tips for people who are going outside too on short walks. You know, if you're in a city, it seems like from the Japanese research into forest bathing, for example, that the more we can wake up our sensory brains, the more restorative our experience will be and in a shorter period of time. 

So, you know, we can go outside and, you know, listen to a podcast or, you know, be thinking about our to-do list. Right. We all do that. But the more you can actually try to locate yourself in, you know, time and space in the present moment, you know, we know from the mindfulness research, right. That that's really, that's really great. So to tap into our sensory brains, I suggest doing things like, you know, looking for fractal patterns, for example, you know, in the landscape where you're walking, looking at patterns that you might find in, in flower blooms or, in you know, tree limbs in bark in clouds, you can always look up right. 

Even when you're in a city and then, you know, trying to also key in to Birdsong, you know, what birds are you hearing? Where's the sound coming from, do some sounds of nature, feel farther away or some closer. And then I love to sort of grab, especially evergreen needles, you know, off of landscaping or a wild tree is great, but you know, if it's going to be a shrub from my neighbors yard, that works too, you know, and I really take a deep inhale of those wonderful smells and, and that puts your brain emotionally in a different place really, really quickly. 

Monica (28m 21s): Yeah. I think about that, like lavender or basil or Rosemary, something that you can smell. And Jennifer, what really, I remember really struck me is when we first met, you were telling me, you know, you do these guided nature walks and you were fascinated that one of the things that people love the most was when you touch something, you know, pick something up and touch a plant. And they were like, yeah, we just don't do it in. So thinking about activating those senses is such a great tip. 

Florence (28m 52s): It really, it really is amazing how that sort of puts us into our bodies. It embodies us, which is so good for our mental health. And it's something that we, you know, we're typically sort of sensory deprived when we're, when we're at our desks all day. And so that's a wonderful idea, Jennifer. 

Jennifer (28m 10s): Well you say, what you always talk about like being in nature, our being with nature makes us more human. You know, like you had just said about this, we've been so disconnected from the natural world that we made it normal for so long that now reconnecting everyone said, oh, well then it's okay. We're giving ourselves permission to love being in touch with nature, which I think is– 

Florence (29m 30s): Right, and to, and to be our full embodied animal selves. You know, I also say, I say that nature is good for civilization because it does make us calmer and more generous. And we know this from some really interesting awe studies that when we perceive something really beautiful, it takes us outside of our kind of individual, you know, dramas and makes us feel connected to the world around us. And which also makes us feel connected to each other. 

So we'd be more inclined to sort of act in prosocial ways to help each other. And, and studies have really shown that.

Monica (30m 15s): Yeah, there, there is a study that shows that when you experience awe in nature, you are actually kinder and more generous after that experience, which is pretty mind blowing to me. 

Florence (30m 29s): Yeah, I know, I know that was a surprise to me too. I didn't think nature would actually necessarily, you know, make us nicer people or make us, you know, give away more money to charity, things like that. 

And there are actually a bunch of studies that show that also we tend to perceive our own physical bodies as being smaller and our own problems as being a little bit less consuming. You know, we feel more that we're part of the world. And boy, do we need to feel that right now, right. When these problems that are confronting us really demands cooperation. 

Monica (31m 07s): Yeah. I mean, as we're recording this, the IPCC report, the newest one came out, I think yesterday. And it's kind of, you know, touched off a whole emotional firestorm of questions and thoughts that like we've really baked in kind of one and a half, possibly two degrees and sort of for the next 30 years, like this is what's going to happen. But you know, with, with cooperation, we affect what's going to happen after those 30 years. And so I'm really hoping that this can be a potential wake up call to all of us. 

I mean, obviously we're already in that place. And our goal is to share that information with people and get them to, you know, find a way in, and you know, one way in maybe reading your book, right, or even an article you've written or listening to an episode, but tell us a little bit more about, you know, what you're working on today. Cause you're, you're doing some really interesting things, including your own podcast. Yeah. I, I have made several podcasts and most recently this summer I've been working on a little series for Outside magazine that we're calling the Summer of Love, which is about how sort of our human relationships get really amplified and catalyzed by time outside. 

And I have a kind of related book coming out really soon. It's already available for pre-order and it's actually about, it's about heartbreak and it's called Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journey. People can find out more about that on my website, Florencewilliams.com. You can sign up for a newsletter, that book's coming out in a few months, but you know, one of the things I look at is how nature can help us heal from grief and heal from trauma and how it can be kind of an antidote to loneliness too. 

So in The Nature Fix, I, I, I sort of look at nature. I look at a dose curve of nature starting from sort of nearby nature to like three days in the wilderness and talking about the three-day effect. And I do have a podcast called that also that we just pull out kind of that section, but in this new book, I, I look at what happens after like 14 days after 30 days. Okay, great. And it's also very, it's a personal journey for me, so.

Monica (33m 31s): That’s so exciting. Well, we'll put that in our show notes, for sure. So tell us a little bit about the three-day, three-day effects and then what the difference there is between these sort of 14 and 30, because some of our listeners may be like, Ooh, three days is too long, how am I going to achieve 14 or 30? So what does that mean? What do I need to do? Do I have to be camping that whole time in the middle of nowhere? Or what, what, what do I need to do? 

Florence (33m 57s): I'm not sure the science kind of breaks down the like exact, you know, sort of recommendations. The studies looking at the three-day effect, really a lot of them come out of Utah. I spent a lot of time in the nature of books talking to a particular cognitive neuroscientist named David Strayer. And he studies people who go on backpacking trips and people who go on river trips. 

And actually the research was corroborated by a study in Minnesota, also looking at canoeist. So, so these are really people who are, are sleeping outside, you know, having sort of a full three-day immersion and what Dr. Strayer kind of noticed. And then what he's kind of verified in the research is that big changes happen in our brains after three days outside, you know, we, we start to sort of separate from the human world a little bit and our sense our sensory brains just really come online. 

You know, we, we notice things by the third day that we wouldn't have noticed the first day we see things we wouldn't have seen. We hear things we wouldn't have heard. And when that happens, you know, the blood flow is really changing into different, different pathways, different parts of my brain. 

There's another theory that that is not Strayer's, but someone else's that after three days, our dreaming starts to sort of reference. We, when we dream the only reference like a world that's kind of three days old or something, or even when we're daydreaming. And so if we've been in nature or for three days, we start to– our dreams start to take place in nature more. And I thought that was really interesting. And, and, you know, of course, a lot of traditions and cultures across time have used these nature immersions as rites of passage, right? 

Because there are really profound shifts in our thinking about ourselves, in our thinking about our place in society, who we are. And again, if we, if we are dealing with grief of trauma, we need to confront those, those really big questions, and we need to have the kind of time and space and a calmer, nervous system that will allow those big thoughts to happen. And so, so I think we're, you know, we're seeing more wilderness therapy, which is really interesting and has been so helpful for a lot of people. 

It takes us out of our kind of ruts and patterns and helps us kind of rearrange the furniture in our, in our brains a little bit. 

Jennifer (36m 32s): Yeah, when did you start really studying that, that effect awe like, was that initially right off the bat that you really recognize, or is that something you've kind of discovered through your, your studies and your writing and your reading? 

Florence (36m 43s): Yeah, I think it was really through the writing of The Nature Fix where I, I came across some of those studies and started talking to some researchers who have figured out different ways, different ways to study awe. It's kind of, it's, it's been an underappreciated emotion. You know, we have a bunch of positive emotions and awe was one that was kind of less studied than some others. And of course for a long time psychologists and experimental psychologist, we're really focusing on the negative emotions. 

So it's only been even sort of recently that we've been looking at the benefits of positive emotions and awe has been just late to the party, but it's such a uniquely kind of human emotion. And, and the fact that it does bind us to each other is really interesting because it suggests that perhaps it has been a critical emotion for human evolution, because it has helped to keep us in community and has helped keep us, you know, sort of caring about each other. 

And that's why, you know, even like so many religions, you know, including prehistorical religions, you know, really incorporated, you know, elements of awe and, you know, the cosmos right. Things that make us feel small and humans are I think sort of unique probably, and tapping into that. 

Monica (38m 05s): And I think as you, as you talk about religion, I think about, you know, some of these incredible architectural cathedrals, right. That are, that are Gothic and so not modern, but, but that may, I wonder if that's sort of what they were going for when you walk into one with the size and the flying buttresses and the stained glass windows. Sure. I think there are lots of ways that we access awe. You know, it's not just nature. Although the studies seem to show that for most of us these days, about half the time we experience awe it's in the natural world, but we also experience it from, you know, museums or listening to a symphony or, you know, watching the birth of a baby, right. 

Or, or maybe seeing someone famous can fill us with all awe to a certain extent, you know, politicians of course have really kind of manipulated those emotions in big, large rallies, you know, where we maybe feel the power of sort of awe that way, where we have this sort of collective experience of awe you know, the pyramids, right. I mean, there are all these ways that, that political leaders and governments and religious leaders have in some ways manipulated those feelings to kind of make us think a certain way, you know, in, in unison. 

Monica (39m 42s): No, I love that. And I think that, you know, the wilderness therapy, I think that's a really interesting thing. And it sort of has all clicked for me having this conversation that, that those three days of, it's almost like going out and having a reset. 

Florence (39m 55s): Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And there's a circadian reset too. Of course, that happens when you're just exposed to natural light and darkness, people sleep on average an hour more outside for three days. 

And, and that benefit lasts for about a week of that kind of circadian reset. And there are ways that we can, I think, try to engineer that a little bit in our, you know, normal lives too, by going for walks early in the morning. And also at night, I find that when I, I have a dog, you know, when I walk her after dinner, when it's dark out or I watch the sunset, which I have been doing all through the pandemic, I sleep better. 

Jennifer (40m 36s): Yeah, I can understand that. I can, especially being a big tent all summer. I can definitely understand that. Yeah. 

Monica (40m 41s): Yeah. I know. Last summer, that experience for you, Jennifer, cause you were really there the whole time. 

Jennifer (40m 48s): Changes things for sure. Cause everything you're saying Florence is like, it's so hitting home to me because it's spending last summer three, three months living outdoors in a tent and didn't go in, I didn't go inside for three months. 

Florence (41m 1s): So what else did you notice, Jennifer? 

Jennifer (41m 3s): Everything. It is really a transformative experience like rising with the sun and swimming with the sunrise and just feel like this etherealness of space and place that I never ever experienced. But what you're saying is just like hitting my heart in such a powerful way, because it is so deeply ingrained within us to feel this connection to one another through nature and you're, you're talking about it and it's, it just makes my heart swell with just excitement and love and empathy for those who cannot get outdoors for multiple reasons.

Florence (41m 39s): And for all the kids who don't have this kind of gift in their toolbox that they can draw upon, you know, as, as they face challenging times. Yeah. I'm really passionate about getting kids outside and getting them connected. I think they need it. I think our planet needs it. 

Monica (42m 03s): Yeah. Tell me, I mean, I, I think we've seen the trends over the past sort of 18 months with the pandemic of people really wanting to find space in nature and you know, getting outside in whatever way that might be, whether that was changing houses or fleeing the city for the moment, but what trends are you seeing positively that we can sort of look to and help amplify?

Florence (42m 41s): I do think as hard as the pandemic has been, one silver lining has been that people are thinking more about their mental health, and talking more about their mental health and they're paying attention to how they feel. 

So when they do go outside and of course, you know, I think you'd have to be under a rock right now, not to be seeing lots of, you know, stories about the benefits of being outside when they do go outside. Maybe they're paying a little bit more attention to how they feel afterwards. And I think a lot of people are really finding it fantastic after being kind of cooped up on, on zoom calls all day, that, that they need this balance in their lives of something authentic and something sensory-based to have kind of just more balanced, you know, sort of diet of, of media and stimulation in their lives. 

I think that people have felt safer outside, you know, than inside. And then that's also been remarkable. You know, I, when I wrote The Nature Fix, I really thought it was kind of an obvious thesis. I was like, well, duh, of course being outside makes us feel better. You know, don't, don't people already know this, like nobody's really going to care, but I can't tell you how many emails I got from people saying, well, I read your book and now I go outside. Right. And I'll be like, oh wow. So, so there were a lot of people not going outside. 

And now I hope that there are more, you know, especially after all we've been through this year. You know, I just think there's a ton of momentum here. There aren't a lot of other things we can do that make us feel better. We can't necessarily go travel to see our families or, you know, go to the concerts and the symphonies and experience these sort of cultural, cultural things. And so, so I think nature has really kind of risen to the top. I think the question is, you know, whether it, it, it sticks. 

Monica (44m 37s): Right. I think we have to make it stick. Yeah. I think, I think that's our role. I, you know, personally, I think all of our role is to continue to talk about it. And, and again, everybody's going to enter it from a different direction. Right. And so which data point or information source, or, you know, is going to drive them to do it, it's going to be totally different. And I think that's the thing that we all need to just keep doing it. Even if we think it's so obvious to us. Yeah. Yes. Keep sort of preaching if you will not. 

Florence (45m 17s): Yeah. Well, I think that's why the work you both are doing is so important and I'm really grateful that you're doing it. 

Monica (45m 23s): Thank you. We really do enjoy it and we were like, we've been talking about how thrilled we are to have you on today as we wrap up. Is there anything else you want to share? I mean, definitely. I think we all need to, pre-order your book, we're going to put that in the show notes, I’m also going to link to your three-day effect podcast, which is more like an audio 

Jennifer (45m 43s): Was that was that a few years ago? The three-day effect that's two years ago. 

Florence (45m 49s): I think it was about two years ago. Yeah. We did it right after the book came out. 

Jennifer (45m 53s): I loved it. So very like an NPR kind of feeling like I felt, I wasn't expecting it when I download it. I said, oh my gosh, this is really I'm hearing the people speak you know in real life. And it was, it was really good. So I loved it really.

Florence (46m 4s): Well it was fun because we really take groups of people out into the nature and we do these tests on them. We measure their nervous systems in different environments. And so it was really fun. 

Monica (46m 16s): Yeah it kind of brings the book to life. And then the outside series is phenomenal. I've listened to a few of them. I just haven't been in the car as much and that’s usually where I listen to my podcasts, but I did especially love the one about, was it the two climbers relationship was so wonderful. The older and younger climber. 

Florence (46m 35s): Yeah. I don't just look at romantic relationships in that series. You know, I look at, you know, friendships. Yeah, yeah. Different things. 

Monica (46m 50s): Yeah. I took it as Summer of Love of just getting outside. 

But Florence, we are thrilled to call you our friend. We're thrilled about the work that you're doing out there and anything we can do to share and amplify, our pleasure. 

Florence (47m 05s): Well, back at you, I'm very appreciative of you both. And thank you so much for having me on today.

Monica (47m 19s): Okay. So what are your thoughts on our chat? What were your big takeaways, Jennifer? 

Jennifer (47m 24s): Okay, well, I love her so much. She's so full of so much wealth of information, but I love that there are benefits even the dead of winter. For example, if we venture outside for 20 minute walk in the winter, it may not be the most mindful experience per se. And we might be thinking about how cold we are, but we still receive benefits. The other thing is the science behind the sound and the effects of different types of sounds on our wellbeing. 

Monica (47m 45s): Right. We become so used to those sort of man-made and city life sounds that we really don't fully recognize the effect they're having on us. So like let's say you're working at home and all of a sudden somebody starts jackhammering the sidewalk right outside your window. We might jump and realize what's happening and feel irritated. But from an evolutionary perspective, we're going into a complete flight or fight mode. And over time, these things have an effect on our overall health and our rates of anxiety. 

Jennifer (48m 13s): So incredible. Isn't it. And then on the flip side sounds of nature like birds and running water had this soothing calming effect on us. It's really, really fascinating. 

Monica (48m 23s): I know that's probably why I choose that apple phone birds chirping in the morning. And of course we talked about awe. So we're kind of coming full circle from our conversation with Phil Tabb all the way back to episode one. Florence, reiterates how feelings of awe produce these really prosocial emotions like generosity and creates this feeling that you're a small part of a massive world in the universe. And I would also make the argument that these things really help us build a thriving society. My other takeaway, and I'm not joking, kind of joking is to really get yourself some great outerwear. 

Jennifer (48m 57s): No, it's so true. It's really not a joke. 

Monica (48m 59s): Right? Like, think about how more appealing it is to go out in the rain. If you've got some great boots and a really good headed rain jacket. 

Jennifer (49m 5s): Exactly. I mean, I do it all the time, especially in New York or for the winter, a big poofy winter jacket and great hat make all the difference. It sort of sounds silly. It's actually pretty important. And so practical. I mean, layers are so important. 

Monica (49m 18s): That's right. I'm off to pursue the Patagonia website 

Jennifer (49m 22s): Bye, Monica. 

Monica (49m 24s): Bye, Jennifer.