Why Do Children Need Nature to Thrive?

Jennifer (5s): Hey Monica. 

Monica (7s): Hey Jennifer 

Jennifer (8s): Tell everybody about our guest today. 

Monica (9s): So we spoke with Sarah Milligan-Toffler, the President and CEO of the Children and Nature Network. This is an incredible organization whose mission is to increase equitable access to nature so children, and the environment can both thrive. Sarah's work focuses on building relationships and networks from city governments to the corporate sector to fulfill that mission. She is also the recipient of multiple awards, including the George B Hartzog Junior Environmental Award. I hope I said that, right. And the Fran P Mainella award for sustained and innovative achievement by a woman in the management of North America's historic and cultural heritage. Mouthful!

Jennifer (45s): That is such a mouthful. So in short, we were obviously super excited to speak with her. 

Monica (49s): Yes, exactly. So you don't have to have listened to our past episodes to be fully on board with this one, but I think so many of the things we touched on with Sarah parallel, our conversations with Bill Browning about health and wellness and Tim Beatley about ethics of cities and how nature plays such an important role. 

Jennifer (1m 5s): Yes, absolutely. Let's get to our conversation with Sarah Milligan Toffler. 

Monica (1m 11s): Hey Sarah, thanks for coming in today. 

Sarah (1m 13s): Hi Monica! Nice to see you. 

Jennifer (1m 16s): Oh my gosh. I'm so happy to be in a room with all these amazing people today!

Monica (1m 20s): I know, you guys, this is the first time we've been back in the studio and you might actually hear a little bit of thunder outside, nature’s trying to get in. So we're really excited to be together and we're really excited to have you, Sarah. 

Sarah (1m 33s): Well thanks so much for having me it's exciting to be here. 

Monica (1m 35s): So one of the things I wanted to sort of kick off with is always asking, you know, your background, we absolutely are huge fans of the children Nature Network. Tell us what you do and what is the children Nature Network for our listeners? 

Sarah(1m 48s): Sure. Well, first I have the tremendous privilege of being the President and CEO of the Children and Nature Network. I've been with the network for almost eight years. And before that I worked for 30 years in non-profit management, really in the world of getting kids connected to nature. So I've been doing it for a really long time and I just moved to Georgia in 2020. I'm super excited to be here, moved here with my husband and his mom. And I just love exploring the outdoors here, running the trails I'm out there every day. 

Jennifer (2m 28s): And it feels so good. Doesn't it? It does. I just did it right before we, we just joined together. 

Monica (2m 32s): Yeah. And I was going to say that we're all in Serenbe and Jennifer's at Serenbe with us today and Sarah has moved to Serenbe.

Jennifer (2m 38s): I can see everyone looking at me right now. 

Monica (2m 41s): We're waiting for you from New York City. 

Sarah (2m 45s): You can come visit whenever you want. 

Jennifer (2m 47s): Thank you. I appreciate that. I try now that I feel like we're at the light end of the tunnel of the pandemic. I feel like I can come a little more often. 

Monica (2m 53s): Sarah give us a little more about your background in nature and sort of children's work before you got to Children and Nature Network, tell me what you were doing. 

Sarah (3m 1s): Yeah I worked for almost 25 years for an organization called Wilderness Inquiry. And we do, well, they do wilderness trips all over the world, really introducing people with disabilities and young people that don't have regular access to nature. That's the whole mission. And so, yeah, I worked, I worked my way, you know, kind of through that organization and learned the ropes of running a nonprofit. And then when I had the opportunity to come to Children and Nature, it was just a great fit and super excited about doing this work. 

Jennifer (3m 33s): Can you share with us the actual mission behind the children Nature Network? 

Sarah (3m 36s): Yes, absolutely. So I'm going to start first with our vision. Our vision really is of a world where all children have access to the benefits of nature everywhere they live, learn, and play. And to, to reach that goal of all children, we, our mission is really to increase equitable access to nature because we know that too often, a child's zip code, their race, their ability level impacts whether they have access to nature or not. And so we really need to focus on that equity question. 

Monica (4m 7s): Yeah and that is something that I don't think that a lot of people recognize. They just maybe make the assumption that there's parks everywhere or, you know, you have access to a trail head or you can go on a little camping trip, but I think that's something that is really important and that we've talked about with other people is like what makes equitable access. So I'm super curious to talk about that today. 

Jennifer (4m 26s): Yeah. And especially going off the heels of like talking to Tim Bailey, that being ethical and what creates an ethical city. So are the gateway I think is nature, but how do we then incorporate the nature to parks and to access? And I think that's a big conversation of like, how do we do it and what do we need to do to kind of just bridge that story of Nature has to be an equitable source to all living people, no matter your ability or disability and or where you live. And I think it's really important that we're having this conversation. 

The work that you do is so important, especially now coming out of COVID, it's, it's impactful and important. So why is Nature important for children of all ages? 

Sarah (5m 6s): Well the same reason it's important for all of us, right? Because we know that nature helps reduce stress, improve our mental and physical health, helps us focus, helps, helps us concentrate. We know that we're just our wellbeing is supported by being connected to nature and all of that's true for children. But the other reason that it's so important to think of this for children is that we know that habits established early in life carry into adulthood. So if we don't start that engagement and having kids just feel comfortable, you know, exploring, asking questions, falling down and knowing what different plants are. 

It's hard to sort of pick that up once you're into adulthood. And the last thing I'll say about why it's so important is that research really shows and there's a growing body of research around nature connection and brain development. And while it's great news that there is you know plasticity and we can, we can continue to develop our brains throughout our life, we see that children who don't have regular access to nature, actually the, the white matter in their brain does not develop normally. 

And so that impacts their ability to perform in school, to concentrate, all kinds of things. So we really just need to make sure that parents know how important it is for their children's healthy development to get them outdoors, you know, as often as they can. 

Jennifer (6m 36s): I'm so glad you brought that up because we kind of overlook the actual impact where you say, oh, it's just their, and we'll always be there, but it's maybe on the weekends or somewhere else, but I'm so glad you said that because it's so important for the children's development, right? 

Sarah (6m 53s): And it's just easy. Oh, sorry, Monica. I was just, you know, I think we often think too, that it means like we need to get in a car we need to get on a bus or train and go out to nature. We have resources on the children and nature network's website, where you can do, kind of connection to nature from a balcony. If you happen to live in New York City, like you do Jennifer and you maybe don't have regular access or easy access to a park, you can look at the birds, you can look at the trees, you can look outside and just notice what's out there and that it's better to be immersed. But even that is, it helps you engage with your environment and it really, you really get the benefits from that.

Jennifer (7m 31s): I love that. Like, it's the noticing because we often overlook it because it's a bird or it's this, or it's a plant, but we're never really engaging to say what I wonder what that is. Or just to be curious and explore and wonder, and that's the gift of the witnessing of the nature around us. And that's why I think, you know, you're teaching that and it's so important. 

Monica (7m 51s): Well, and you said before we got on, you know, people will think, oh, well, you're just a nature person. Like you like nature, just like somebody else likes movies. And I thought you had a great response to that. And so do you want to sort of throw that back out at us? Like people aren't just, we shouldn't be thinking of it as this thing that you are, or you aren’t, right?

Sarah (8m 8s): Right. Well, and, and whether you like nature or not, doesn't matter. And hopefully people do grow, grow to, to like it, but we are, we are part of nature. Actually. We are wired, our brains are wired to respond to natural forms. And clearly now we're learning that our brains are wired to, you know, to respond to nature and develop with nature. So it's, it's less about whether you like it or not. And more about just recognizing that, you know, we really need those opportunities to kind of reconnect with our source. 

Monica (8m 50s): So I think, you know, I like that also, you know, it's not whether you like it or not, that doesn't really matter. Like we need it. We're part of it. And I think of a lot of people who think of nature, like it's so dark in the country, or, well, what if there's bugs or is there something that's going to eat me on the trails? that we somehow culturally have gone from you know, a community of people who are very comfortable in nature to a group of people that are very scared of nature, if that's a way, and I don't know if that has something to do with the historic barriers, you know, to prevent people from coming into nature, like, is there is an, an education, like, what is it that sort of stops people from embracing it? 

Sarah (9m 37s): Well, that's a big question, Monica. And I think that, and maybe I'll answer that in a couple of ways, because I think that, you know, historically, you know, there is a healthy fear of nature. I mean, you need to know what's around you. There are animals that could harm you, you know, and that's in our, in ancient history, right? And so it's important to, to be aware of what the dangers are, but as obviously, as we've built up cities and done those kinds of things, we've tended to, there's the thunder. We actually have created communities that really are intentionally disconnecting us from nature. And I think we're just now realizing that we kind of threw the baby out with the bath water on that one, and that we need to re-wild our, our cities. We need to bring nature back into, you know, housing developments and urban centers and, you know, creating outdoor places where people can work. And just all of the things that we’re now seeing help to support people, being, you know, happy, healthy, you know, they're best selves. 

Monica (10m 50s): Absolutely. And I think a big part of that is policy, right? 

Sarah (10m 53s): Yeah. A lot of it's policy, a lot of it is recognizing just even recognizing that it's something that's important. We take it for granted. And I use this example because I think if you go into a community, let's say, you're you, you talk with any community, any municipal leaders, city leaders, and say, you know, what about parks? Oh, we'd love our parks and our, the community's, we all love our parks. But if you look at city budgets, it tells you that they don't. The values follow the money. 

And so what I would love to see is that we fund parks like their public health infrastructure and education infrastructure that they really are. That would really communicate that, that we value our parks. Parks are the first thing to get cut in terms of budgets and staff and all of that. So, but we've seen with, with COVID with the pandemic, it is part of our public health infrastructure. And I, I know park directors who just like, we don't have the capacity to respond to the need and that's, that's a funding decision. 

That's a policy decision and you know, we're working, we're not there yet, but you know, how do we kind of flip that switch so that people start to see like, no, if we don't invest here, we're going to be paying down the line. 

Monica (12m 20s): Well and I think that's a good point. You know, you're saying paying down the line, like kids, if the white matter isn't developing, we're going to pay for those kids. Aren't just not going to be at their full potential. Right. 

Jennifer (14m 32s): I was going to say, I was going to ask, have you seen a greater interest because of COVID and what you're doing, and that people are saying, I need to have more access and how do we do these policies or change the policies?

Sarah (14m 42s): We really have. I think people are waking up to the importance of, of nature in the outdoors. I think municipal leaders are, I think families are recognizing this. I'm going to, I'll talk in a minute about the, the huge interest. There's a moment right now, I think for outdoor learning in green school yards. But I do want to point to one thing that is actually concerning that folks need to know that the, we are seeing some early research come in about COVID there, these studies are available on the children and Nature Network website. 

While adults are spending more time getting outdoors and connecting to nature, we're seeing that children are spending even less time than they were before outdoors. Wow. And it's having pretty significant impacts on their mental health, on anxiety levels, on their ability to focus. Kids are, you know, while they've been learning online and all of that there now there's huge anxieties about going back into the classroom. And so we, we have some work to do to help ensure that those kids have, have an opportunity to get back outdoors. 

But we in parents where they need to be paying attention to sort of, you know, they're on, on zoom all day for school, and then 

Monica (16m 4s): No PE because, you know, what do you do for PE? I mean, you know, and pushups in your bedroom.

Jennifer (16m 9s): Heard that same thing, like friends from around the country are saying, I can't get my kids outside. My teenagers will not leave in their bedroom cause they're on zoom and they're on their devices. And it's been really challenging. 

Monica (16m 19s): Yeah and all their friends are on those devices. And so, you know, you're also finding that they don't, they haven't felt safe to intermingle and be social with other kids. So, you know, and especially, hopefully now we're going to get the vaccine for 12 to 15, but it is kind of interesting because there's no social life for them, you know, especially the older ones. 

Sarah (16m 39s): Yeah. But there is this, there is a huge interest right now and in outdoor learning. And I can give an example of, you know, what we're seeing is that if you know those schools that want to get kids back into in-person instruction, if you use that space outdoors, I mean, we talk about ventilation. Yes, sure. We can get good ventilation open windows, but what about outside? Like there's the best ventilation out there. 

So, so schools are really recognizing that that's going to be a way to be able to get back into in-person learning, but then, you know, what we're hoping is that we can help to support them, building that infrastructure to continue it after COVID, because we know that it really helps kids, you know, be better and learn better. And they just, you know, they, they feel better when they, when they spend time outside there, there's lots of evidence that outdoor learning really supports improved academic outcomes, especially for those kids that are struggling the most in school. 

They, they, they benefit even more. So we are working on a national initiative and partnership with the national league of cities. We've got 12 cities right now, city school district partnerships that have, that will be part of a national cohort that are working to create district-wide green schoolyard efforts. So every student in, in a school district, well, to have that opportunity, and right here in Georgia, an exciting to say that Atlanta public schools and partnership with the city of Atlanta and then DeKalb county and Decatur school district are part of that cohort. 

And they were selected out of over 50 partnerships around the country to be part of the cohort. So very exciting. And there's, and it's building on, there are great pilots going on here. There are, you know, partnerships that are already in place. And we really saw through their application that those, you know, two districts are really right for not just one or two, but district-wide greening of school grounds, which is really exciting. And added to that is here in Georgia in the last legislative session, Senator Sheik Rahman put forth a bill to create a Senate learning study committee on outdoor learning. 

And that passed with huge bipartisan support. And so that's going to be starting this year as well. So we're really hopeful that actually here in Georgia, we could have an example where we're showing local momentum, great partnerships, local foundations, and businesses are involved, and then the state can come in and hopefully lend their shoulder to the wheel as well and, and provide, you know, hopefully funding and policy support. So this can, you know, grow across the state. 

Monica (19m 36s): Yeah and we're saying also that's like broad bipartisan support, you know, cause we were like, nature does not take sides. Like it's amazing, you know, this is for all of our kids and it's really, really for the future again, trying to get these kids to their potential. That's right. By getting to the side, can you tell me like, one question I had was like greening a public school yard? What does that exactly mean? 

Sarah (19m 49s) Yeah. It's a great question, Monica. Cause it's like, what is that like a garden?

Well the first thing I'll just mention is that we think about the land around a school is like belonging to the school. That's actually public land, you know, it belongs to the public. And we don't think about that land around a school as part of the learning environment for our children, which, you know, kind of a huge miss and, and a huge opportunity. The other thing that's really important to know is that public schools in the United States in most communities are one of the top three landholders. 

So like in Chicago, Chicago public schools is the second largest landholder in the city of Chicago. So if we thought differently about how that land is used, imagine the impact we could have. So, to answer your question, Monica, what does that look like? So we can think first about, you know, sort of the environmental pieces, green infrastructure, stormwater capture, native plantings, tree canopy that can, you know, buffer communities from heat island. 
So we can, we can sort of think about, you know, the creation of flyways for, you know, native species and all of that on the school grounds. And we can, and like with the green infrastructure, Houston is doing this to help with flooding and, and really, you know, girding themselves for the impacts of climate change and using their school grounds to do that. Then you think about what goes on top of that, you know, ball fields. Sure. That's great. But that's usually where we stop gardens for growing food in, in, in Atlanta, you know, urban forestry is a huge deal, but we can do that on all of our school grounds and kids can be involved in growing food for, you know, for the cafeteria. Outdoor classrooms, hiking trails. I mean, we, we, we know that kids that are not involved and competitive sports kind of stopped being active if they're not still engaged in that in middle school, why don't we have hiking trails? Why don't we have bike paths? Why we have places where, you know, kids can be active outside and hang hammocks, climb trees to do that kind of stuff. So it's really, there are these multi-functional spaces. They can be, they really should be available to the school community during the day and the surrounding community outside of school hours. 

And those are the kinds of school yards that we look to support, but we really try and help folks imagine just, you know, just open up their imagination about what these spaces could be. We have such a limited view. And you know, if you look at it, many, many school grounds in this country, you'll see a slab of blacktop. If you're lucky, a basketball hoop and maybe some, you know, playground equipment, usually a chain link fence around it. And what I often say is if you put a lion inside of that space, you would say that is not a suitable environment for an animal in a zoo. And yet we send our children there everyday and think that’s fine.

Monica (23m 10s): Great point. So sad. Yeah. I mean, I'm imagining my, my childhood, my black top, you know, and it's like, maybe there was some green, but that was a ball field or, you know, 

Sarah (23m 18s): And it's often turf grass, which is fine. That's a start, I think like if you could have trees in native plannings and so many other things there, then it creates such a more interesting space. 

Monica (23m 24s): Well you can educate the kids on what all the different species are, and I love the sort of food forest idea or, you know, the green garden. That's amazing. 

Jennifer (23m 30s): Absolutely. So that's the way for growth. Don't you think you want to go forward? Like that's how we're going to grow and understand like what we want to protect. Right. It was important. And those kids are going to want to say, I grew my, my garden here and I want to protect the land here and I know it better than ever before. And those children hopefully grow up to be activists and enthusiasts an environmentalist to really protect the planet going forward which is really important. 

Monica (23m 54s): We touched on, or we have touched on that in, in other episodes, you know  sort of like what is an ethical city? And I think we've all sort of come to the conclusion that, you know, having access to nature is one aspect of how, you know, making an equitable city. And so I would be curious, you know, obviously greening schoolyards is a great part of it. And I was shocked. I'm still shocked to hear that they're top three land owners, because that's a great opportunity to, to do something interesting, but like, how do you think, you know, Children and Nature Network is working, you know, on the parks side. 

So like we talked a little bit about public education. Like, are you, what are some of the strategies that we can sort of learn about, how do we make our parks, you know, more equitable, do we need more of them? Did it need to be bigger? Like what, what needs to happen there in our cities. 

Sarah (24m 46s): Yeah. And I think I might back up one minute here and Monica, just to explain, you know, the Children and Nature Network and in the terms of the way in which we work, we don't provide direct programs that connect kids to nature. So we are a national network organization. We have staff all over the country and we really think there are three key things that are kind of needed to sort of move this movement forward. If you will. One is fostering belief that a connection to nature is critical to children's healthy development. 

So fostering a belief, we do that through storytelling and through research. And so we, we collect and curate research. We have a tremendous library on our website that's available and free to anyone to use. And then we, you know, we really think about the strategic communications and how we get the stories out there about it and, and, and lifting up stories about, you know, who's leading the movement and how, how that's happening. The second thing we think about is really impacting core systems that could have an influence on kids' daily connection to nature, right? 

So, you know, again, municipal government, like how we plan cities, how we think about that, you know, how are we, you know, schools and how we think about that. We work a lot in the youth development field and folks, we’re working with social workers to help influence how they do their practice and taking kids outdoors as part of, you know, regular part of therapy. So there are all of these disciplines that have grown up around supporting youth, reaching their full potential, and somewhere along the way, they all missed the memo about nature. 

And so our job is kind of like, how do we like re-hook nature back into everywhere you know, kids, you know, are, are moving about in their lives. And then the third thing is really around, you know, how do we help more people see themselves as part of this movement, as you know, that connection to nature is relevant to them in their lives, in their work. Amazing to me that there are people out there that don't, but this is where we are. So we host the biggest international conference on this topic in the world. 

We'll be in Atlanta in May of 2022 so hope folks will join us for that. And, you know, we create all kinds of tools and resources and things to help, whether it's municipal leaders or parents, we have the gamut. And so I hope folks will check out our, our website for those free tools and resources. So that's, that's the, that's kinda the way we do our work. So getting back to your question about what to cities need to do, I can, I can report on, you know, we've been working with cities for the last almost decade, more than 50 cities around the country that have signed up to say, I'm interested in looking at, you know, what does equitable access look like in our community and how might we support that? 

And the kinds of strategies and solutions that we're seeing folks come up with the green school yards is a huge one because especially, you know, you think of someplace like Patterson, New Jersey, they're not making new land, you know, that's very developed. So the school grounds actually, become, that's public land, that's a space where like, oh, we can, re-imagine how that's being used. So that's, that's a big one, but also things like park library, partnerships, like using a library as a jumping off point for nature connection, nature backpacks that can be checked out of the library. 

I know, and St Paul, Minnesota, there's a great, there's a youth group that, you know, started gardens in, in a nearby park and they put a pollinator garden on top of the library and they just, and they've hosted camp outs in the park, things like that. So libraries are really great place. I think because communities are used to going to libraries and they trust libraries and if libraries are sort of encouraging folks to go outside, that's really a positive. We're seeing early childcare centers. Like how do you, you know, like the preschools, the littles, like how do you start to green those? Some cities have taken that on. Some cities are doing outdoor bills of rights. And they're creating a platform that says, this is, we agree as a community, that it is a child's right to have connection to nature, and that can become by itself. It can be a platitude and nothing's behind it, but it can also be a starting point to say, Hey, look, this, these are our values. 

Now we need to live up to that. And it provides a platform for city leaders to kind of keep that work moving forward. So those are, you know, just some examples.

Monica (29m 42s): I love that. And an outdoor bill of rights is that on your website as well. And people can take a look at it, can they then ask their city to sort of implement this?

Sarah (29m 50s): Absolutely. Anyone can do that. You can take the language and adopt it for your own city. Those, you know, just take it, run with it, for sure.

Jennifer (29m 55s): Are many cities coming to you now and saying, how do we implement or do you guide them through the program? Or you just say, here are the resources to help you. 

Sarah (30m 01s): We provide deep technical assistance and peer learning. We've created networks so that, you know, folks working in Houston can talk to the folks in Atlanta or San Francisco or Grand Rapids, Michigan or Louisville, because these folks that are working in these communities, a lot of them may face the same kind of barriers and challenges. And knowing that there's somebody that they could call, oh, I remember so-and-so she dealt with that. I'm going to call her and see if I can get some ideas on how to, on how to get through this. 

Monica (30m 34s): That’s great, yeah I love it. What are some of the biggest success stories that you've sort of seen over the past eight years that you've been with Children’s? 

Sarah (30m 47s): There's so many, but I think, you know, one example I would say is in Grand Rapids, Michigan, you know, great, great, great community. But they really recognize that they had an equity problem in, you know their particularly their black and Latin X communities were just not using parks, not getting out into them. A lot of, you know, neighborhood folks were saying like, we don't feel safe in our parks, et cetera. 

And so the mayor really made a commitment and just created alignment throughout their city. And actually it was a young woman that had been through one of our youth leadership trainings who kind of ended up leading the effort across the city, and they, they did select greening of school grounds as one of their kind of core strategies after, you know, going out to the community, asking them what they wanted, all of that. And so they are, you know, they are breaking ground. 

They have, and in the mayor when she is out speaking, I mean, she's talking about nature connection as a pillar of what makes Grand Rapids a wonderful place to live. And that's a sign I think when we were starting to hear mayors and their talking points, it's not just, it's not just, you know, we have great parks and whatever it's that we really recognize that throughout our city, this is an important aspect. And that kids feel welcome here. 

Monica (32m 15s): To that nature connection center, it’s interesting, I'm always fascinated with the language. And so, you know, all the work that you're doing and all the research like is that sort of the simplest way to sort of break it down for families and for municipalities, is just say that?

Sarah (32m 33s): You know we, we often also just use the word outdoors because sometimes for a lot of communities, nature can feel far away. And so we often talk about, you know, let's just, just get outside, you know, and, and, but I do think that there are opportunities for us to think about, you know, how do we increase the biodiversity of the spaces that we have. I mean, you know, parks are great very often, you know, parks focus almost exclusively on kind of the recreation component and don't really think about the other opportunities. And I've often thought about this. I don't know. You know, it's like when my son was little, you know, take him over to soccer practice and, you know, all the parents were just sitting there watching their kids play soccer, cause there's nothing for them to do in the park. Right. And not, and even just practicing, like, you know, you don't need to sit and watch your kid practice. It's not a game, but, but there aren't, you know, walking trails or, you know, just rock climbing or just interesting things to look at in parks. 

And so there's so much opportunity for us to add, you know, more biodiversity to those spaces. And so we're seeing cities kind of take up some of that work. 

Monica (33m 49s): That’s great. Do you have, and not to make you choose a favorite, but do you have like a model park or some preferences that you're like, ah, this one's doing it really well across the country. 

Sarah (34m 03s): There’s so many examples, there's a great park in Cincinnati, Ohio that's doing, you know, that's really awesome, you know, and I, you know, Grand Rapids again, like their school grounds in some regards are sort of like parks, you know? And, and that's, that's a whole frame that I think is really, you know, that we're seeing cities sort of take up and school districts take up is not just thinking of that land as you have the schoolyard, but as, as parks.

Monica (34m 32s): I love the idea. And I know you’re going to ask questions

Jennifer (34m 34): So many things I want to ask.

Monica (34m 37s): Like the re-imagining, that like sometimes we, the greater we, we can't imagine it, so then we can't build it. And if we don't have models or templates, then we're like, well, we're just stuck with the asphalt and my soccer field. So I love that you're doing that.

Jennifer (34m 50s): No, that's exactly, that's what I was just going to say, because you think about like cities, like I live in New York City, or what’s San Francisco or Los Angeles doing, are they getting involved? because I'm, you know, here I am in New York city or I'm in New York City person, I don't even know.

Sarah (35m 06s): Yeah, well New York Is not part of our particular work, but there is a lot of great work going on in New York with other, you know, with City Parks Alliance and Trust Republic Land, and other groups like that that are doing great work there. You know, San Francisco actually is a really great example. They have one of the best green schoolyards programs in the country. So they really have done a great job. And they've really now started to tackle early childhood and they, you know, and this is another, I think, I mean, I think it's a celebration point and, and something that's, that's hopeful. 

So San Francisco now through their work with the national league of cities and Children and Nature Network have a children and nature coordinator at the city. Who shows up every day and that’s what she thinks about and she's, and so, you know, through the work that we did with them, initially, we, we are, in addition to his technical assistance, we provide some pass through dollars to the city and they decided to hire a coordinator. And now they're funding that on-going and she's just doing incredible work. 

And so that's a great example. And we're seeing cities that, you know, that do hire that coordinator. It makes a huge difference. Grand Rapids did that. I believe Louisville, Kentucky did that. And so we're just seeing, you know, some really interesting things come out of that because of course it takes time and energy, right.

Monica (36m 43s): Well and you need an expert on your staff to help you. So I’m super excited about the league of cities. I think that's really interesting. And, and I think as citizens, we can probably, I dunno if we can put pressure on our, you know, I don't know city council or whoever to become part of the league of cities, like how do we get them more involved in that? 

Sarah (36m 54s): Yeah. Well, I will say that there are, there's two things I would offer. We will have a request for proposals coming out in the coming months for cities who can apply to be part of a technical assistance cohort over the next three years. So I would say watch for that, go to our website, go to the league of cities website and look for that, those announcements. So that's an absolutely citizens can bring that forward to their elected officials and say, we should do this. 

And, and that that's a thing to do, but I would also say that just beyond, you know, it's great if you can get kind of all that support right for your city, but there are so many tools and resources out there. Our website has them other folks, you know, have great resources as well. And I would say it's always a good time to call your council member and say, you know, this is really important to me. What is the city doing around ensuring that all children have access to nature? 

What are we doing in our parks to ensure that it's, you know, safe, that we're, you know, really thinking about, you know, creating more bio-diverse spaces, you know, what, what about garden's? We know that there are communities that don't have access to fresh food. How can we, how can we solve some of that by using some of our public land, people can go and do that. We do have, we've actually got some great infographics on our website that summarize the research. So you can make the case with, you know, points that are backed up by research. 

And so that sometimes helps folks, because I think, you know, sometimes people are afraid that if they go in there, they're going to feel stupid. So we've tried to create some, some, some helpful tools and just ways of talking about it with folks.

Jennifer (38m 40s): Sure. It's overwhelming to some people that have never really thought about nature and green spaces this way. And so you think, how do, how can I make an impact? I'm just one person in a small town. What am I going to do to make a difference? If you have all this information, these infographics to say, okay, city council member, how can we as a collective make our children healthier and better for the community at large, it’s important.

Sarah (39m 03s): And you know, I, I've never met an elected official. Who's like, yeah, I don't care about kids. 

Jennifer (39m 10s): I can't imagine anyone saying that ever. 

Sarah (39m 12s): It's a kind of an assault. I mean, I mean, I don't like kids and I don't like nature. Nobody ever says that.

Monica (39m 17s): I like that for us, so all city councils here’s an easy policy we can put into place.

Sarah (39m 25s): Easy peasy stuff. 

Monica (39m 29s): So is there anything that we haven't covered that you want to talk about and share? Is there anything upcoming? We definitely want to get people to your website, sign up for the newsletter, come to the conference that you'll be at next year, but like what other big things you want to share with us?

Sarah (39m 47s): Yeah you know, at the beginning, we were talking a little bit about, you know, equity and you know, how, how we know that there are many barriers for all children, but there are some systemic barriers for particular communities. And you know, what we're seeing is actually that the same systems of inequity that impact, you know, black, indigenous, Latin X, Asian, you know, other communities of color around housing education, et cetera, are present in the distribution and accessibility of parks and green space. 

So there it's, there's some intentionality behind that. And so in, in fact, we know that, for example, like back in the fifties, when they were starting to integrate public pools, many communities across this country, rather than integrate them, shut them down, including the parks that surrounded the pools. And so, you know, so then, you know, everybody is kind of losing out and actually in that case, but we're living with the, you know, sort of the fallout from that to this day. 

So I think, you know, and there's a perception problem. I think a lot of people, for example, I mean, there's an idea out there that black people don't like the outdoors. Okay. There is a representation problem, I would say. But when you actually look at the facts, black people, indigenous people have been leading in the environmental movement since forever, and just aren't seen or recognized. 

In fact, I'd love to just read to you because um outside magazine, did an article recently and it was titled “We're here. You just don't see us”. And Latria Graham wrote that. And she, this quote, I think is important. She says, African-Americans don't always go where white people do. Places like swimming, pools, beaches, and parks, you used to be segregated. And some outdoor activities were out of reach if you were poor or lived in an inner city. National parks weren't especially, especially welcoming either. Many were created as an escape from urban sprawl at a time when urban was shorthand for black and immigrants. So I think it's important for us to recognize that history, to acknowledge it and to engage with communities, to educate, you know, for white people to educate ourselves about who those leaders are. I'm actually, there's, we've got a great resource on our website about some of those black leaders that we did as part of black history month. 

So folks can go and check that out and learn about some incredible people. Youth outside has a great, has a lot of great resources about that as well. But I would also say in addition to, you know, recognizing that people of color already exist in the outdoors, of course they do. They're human beings. I mean, it's just, it's ludicrous, but, but we also do need to prioritize equity as we think about creating new parks, those green school yards, et cetera. 

So it's a both, and I think around, and, and that we, you know, that the lens that we look at, like, well, where are we going to invest first? I mean, very often truthfully, where we invest first is where the property taxes are highest. Well, that if you look at, you know, red lining and keeping black people from owning homes, you know, this is all tied together. So that is why it's so important that we, that we really intentionally, you know, invest in those communities that have been systematically dis-invested in. 

Monica (43m 44s): Definitely. And I think the history is so important. Like you're making a point of 'cause if we don't understand contexts. Right. Right. Our lens is blurred. Yeah. And so that totally helped. And, and I think I'm, you had told me it, and, you know, the policy of really hurting everybody is something that I think people need to recognize. So when we create these policies and these terrible racist policies that happened years back and are still happening now with, I mean, everything that's happening with voting rights, it's going to also disenfranchise other people it's going to hurt everybody. 

And so we really have to be thoughtful. And I love that you brought that up, and I love that quote.

Sarah (44m 28s): Well, and I would, I'll say, I would love to invite your listeners, Jennifer, to join us on June 10th, we're doing a webinar with Heather McGhee and Dr. Gail Christopher, and Heather is the author of The Sum of Us, how racism hurts everyone and how we can prosper together. And so she's going to be really diving into these issues in some depth and really talking about what does a multi-racial, multicultural movement look like in this space and really recognizing that truly these policies do hurt everyone and they impact.

Jennifer (45m 12s): I’m so glad you brought that up because Monica, I've been talking so much about this lately. And the fact that you actually said that is exactly the core of the problem, it's hurting everybody so we need to fundamentally look at how we come together to make the outdoors a place for all across the board. 

Monica (45m 27s): And I think that the even higher level is with climate. You know, again, this is not a partisan issue. This is something that we're all involved in and we have to, you know, reconnect people with nature. So they'll really understand what we're trying to save. 

Jennifer (45m 44s): Yeah and like, you just said it to, like, I think we get so much learning out of being in nature, nature to teach us diversity and inclusion, and we're all welcome and we just need you to be present for it. And that there's so much diversity to be found and to be learned and to be taught in nature. And that we’re all super connected to all of it. It’s beautiful.

Sarah (46m 1s): It is, it really is. 

Monica (46m 6s): Well thank you for joining us today, Sarah. I don’t wanna stay too long, our producer is going to tell. Yeah. This has been a joy. We definitely will join you on the 10th as listeners. Yeah. And we put that all on the website and definitely head out to Children Nature Network's website and follow, sign up for the newsletter. 

Jennifer (46m 29s): Your Instagram, everything. It’s all the same, correct?

Sarah (46m 32s): It's all the same. 

Monica (46m 33s): Ok good, well we're going to put them in our show notes. 

Jennifer (46m 35s): Absolutely. Wonderful. Thanks Sarah. Thanks. 

Monica (46m 39s): All right. Okay. So how do we want to wrap that up?  

Jennifer (46m 43s): I don't even know where to start. We ended on such a compelling note, but going back to the beginning of our conversation, the thing that really stuck out to me was the effective nature on brain development and how a lack of access to nature and childhood affects the development of white matter in the brain. I mean, that is so scary to think about. 

Monica (46m 59s): Yes. And I really think what was driven home for me is that we need to be advocating for green schoolyards and creating more welcoming, and accessible parks. These things are so crucial for the health and wellbeing for all of us, but particularly at an early age. 

Jennifer (47m 15s): Oh my gosh. 100%. And I guess one silver lining of COVID is that we don't really have to bend over backwards to make a public health argument for these things anymore. It's right there in the open now. 

Monica (47m 26s): Yes, and it's amazing to hear that cities are starting to hire children and nature coordinators. It reminds me of the city ethicists we talked about with Tim Bailey and it makes me really hopeful, but I do want our listeners to sort of take away that it is up to all of us to not only understand the benefits, but to sort of educate each other about the barriers in access to nature and to advocate for changes and reform at our community and city level. 

Jennifer (47m 52s): Luckily, Children Nature Network has some incredible resources on their website for anyone who doesn't quite know where to start, or if you're listening and you work in a municipal role, there's also a great toolkit that will help you begin the process. You can find all that in our show notes. 

Monica (48m 6s): Well, that was great, Jennifer. 

Jennifer (48m 8s): Yeah. I feel really good and energized and actually very hopeful. 

Monica (48m 11s): But we've also got a lot of work cut out for us. 

Jennifer (48m 14s): Totally 

Monica (48m 15s): Talk to you in two weeks!

Jennifer (48m 16s): See you soon!