The Economics of Conservation with Stacy Funderburke

Jennifer (0s): Hey Monica.

Monica (1s): Hi, Jennifer.

Jennifer (3s): We've got a super interesting interview today. So tell us all about our guest.

Monica (8s): Well, today we're talking with Stacy Funderburk who works for the Conservation Fund and their mission is really through land acquisition, but it's to integrate economic and environmental goals. And Stacy is going to talk to us about some of the projects that he's currently involved in, including the preservation of a historic site here in Atlanta, where they've saved 75 acres and something that's super cool called the working farms fund.

Jennifer (30s): Yeah, Stacy has such a fascinating wealth of information, but the economics of shifting to a more regenerative eco-friendly model and he breaks down new seemingly intricate concepts into really easy to understand ideas.

Monica (43s): Yeah. We talked a lot about the reasons why we should be protecting land, supporting next generation farmers, promoting these best practices, et cetera. But Stacy really helped us get into the mechanics of how we might make this shift more readily possible.

Jennifer (58s): It was so interesting. So let's get to our conversation with Stacy.

Monica (1m 6s): Today. We have Stacy Funderburk here with the conservation fund. Welcome, Stacy. 

Stacy (1m 11s): Thanks for having me.

Jennifer (1m 13s): Yeah. We're thrilled that you're here. We have so much to talk about, so I'm hoping we can keep it under the timeframe that we usually try and keep, because there's a lot to chat about with you. So thanks for joining us.

Monica (1m 23s): So Stacy we have known your, I've known you for some years through Atlanta, in Serenbe. You are the state director for Georgia and Alabama for the Conservation Fund. Plus their regional council, but give us just a high level. What is the Conservation Fund? And you've been there almost 10 years and what do you do for them?

Stacy (1m 44s): The conservation fund is a national nonprofit, and we focus on land and water conservation all across the country. And a lot of that work is, working with local, state, and federal government partners on land acquisition. So think about everything from one acre park inside the city of Atlanta to tens of thousands of acres being added to national forest. We do a lot of work with states and with municipalities adding parks and trails and have been doing that for over 35 years around the country. But one thing that I think is really important that distinguishes us from other environmental nonprofits too, is that we have a dual mission, which is focused on land and water conservation, but also on sustainable economic development but it's really just an acknowledgement that if we aren't benefiting sustainably and economically the communities where we're working on these important conservation projects, we really haven't fulfilled our full mission at the end of the day.

Monica (2m 45s): Right, right, and Stacy, you've been in the news quite a bit, not, just the conservation fund, but you yourself. How'd you become the spokesperson? I saw like on a new may Oriel statement about Chattahoochee brick company you were in the New York Times the other day. It's pretty exciting for you guys. I feel like your profile is really rising for the nonprofit. Talk a little bit about some of the big projects you're working on.

Stacy (3m 5s): Yeah, it's exciting. And one thing you'll find about the conservation fund is that we're not always seeking out that. I think it's just a credit to some of the work that we're doing and work we have been doing for a long time. But there have been a couple of very high profile projects, the working farms fund, which we'll talk about in more detail. And then yes, some really exciting projects here in the city of Atlanta that have major historical and environmental significance for the city of Atlanta that I've been working on. And they're really exciting. And I'm hoping that we can carry those out, but yeah, it's been really nice to see that great coverage that we've received.

Jennifer (3m 40s): That's so exciting, but how did you actually wind up at the conservation fund? Where'd you come from? I mean, I know, and Monica knows, but can you share with us and everyone, how you actually wound up there?

Stacy (3m 51s): Sure. I'll try not to go all the way back, but it's a circuitous path like it often is. My background professionally is I'm an attorney. So after graduating from law school, I moved to Atlanta and I worked for Troutman Sanders, a law firm here in town. And the interesting thing is personally, I have always been interested in environmental issues and cared a lot about conservation. I spent a lot of time outdoors. I spend a lot of time now with my daughters out, hiking and biking and spending time in some of the amazing places we have around the country. But coming out of law school, I knew I was interested in environmental work, but I frankly didn't want to litigate that didn't really fit my personality.

And I also wasn't as interested in the regulatory side of things. So. I fell back on my finance major and went the corporate securities route and it was fun. And then I worked in house for a while, but there's always something nagging at me that I wanted to find a way to somehow combine those personal and professional interests.

And I found my way to the conservation fund. And I'll just say it was a really great combination because the conservation fund, even though we're a conservation nonprofit, A lot of our work is transactional. I would love to say that I spend all my days wandering through the forest. But it's not like that, I'm on the phone with unreasonable landowners and, just spending all day, you know, email, I mean, but at the end of the day the end result of some of these projects, like the ones you referenced earlier, that means a lot to me. And so for me, being able to put in that effort and use my background and transactional expertise to get these projects done is really meaningful work. And that's something that has been really fulfilling in the time that I've been at the conservation fund.

Monica (5m 36s): Yeah, I think that for our listeners, like all of us are always seeking that cross section of purpose and sort of talent and I think all three of us are very lucky in the roles that we have, that we are really able to have that purpose, but also be able to I've heard people say like, what's your super power and thinking about how that can be in service to making communities to your point more sustainable really thinking about how those economic outcomes are super important and how land and access to land can be that way to sort of find it. One of the things that I think is interesting is you kind of came out of law, but these nonprofits, like the conservation fund, you know need that expertise, the financial expertise.

Give us a little bit of the background, the Chattahoochee brick company. This was a piece of land. I think it's about 75 acres that has now been, how does it work? Are you guys purchasing land that this, part of land is going to be part of park land? And I think it's going to be sort of, was it adjacent to another 200, some acres that the city of Atlanta already owned? How does the conservation fund come in and say to that current land owner, this is what we want to do with it?

Stacy (6m 52s): Well, it's a great example and we could likely have another podcast about Chattahoochee Brick itself, but I do just want to give a quick background to give a little context for that project itself, that Chattahoochee bird property is about 75 acres on the Chattahoochee river. It happens to be at the confluence of Proctor Creek and the Chattahoochee River, which is the primary drinking source for the city of Atlanta. There are a lot of plans for enhancing the recreation around the river Trust Republic Land, and other groups are working on this Chattahoochee river lands vision that would run from the recreation area all the way down to Chattahoochee bend state park.

But this site has a really long and complicated history. In fact, when the Chattahoochee Brick company opened in the late 18 hundreds they basically utilized convict lease labor in conditions that were just like slavery. Mostly young black men who were arrested for petty crimes and then employed in the most horrific conditions. You can imagine people died on site and so there is huge historical significance of that property of hoping to be able to memorialize and honor the Chattahoochee brick workers, but also to protect it given its proximity to the Chattahoochee river. So just giving you a little bit of context, it's a site that has been long sought after for green space and other purposes for many, many years. But recently was acquired and there was a plan for a much bigger industrial development, which is an ongoing problem along the river. Like how do you stop the tide of industrial development that has existed for a long time.

But the community fought very hard and the city fought hard to try to get a different outcome there, but that's really where the conservation fund came in. This is a difficult transaction, right? You had the city and the seller not in full litigation, but obviously at odds over the use of the property.

And knew that that was an opening for the conservation fund to do what we do, which is to try to step behind the scenes. And we deal in real estate and try to figure out if there was a path forward and we could help negotiate a deal between the city and owner to try to nail down this long-term outcome to the community and everybody else wants to see. That again, as I said, not wandering through the forest. Seven months of negotiations is still not over. We're still working to get it under contract and there's a lot of work yet to be done, but it's a great example because in this instance, I think the conservation fund was needed to be able to try to negotiate and reach a deal on this transaction.

The conservation fund may be able to step and purchase the property to provide a bridge to the funding that the city will utilize for the ultimate acquisition, which is a role we play with a lot of entities and we have with the city for a long time, but it's really that transactional expertise and the ability to work with both sides and a transaction like that to try to get to the outcome. So it's a really great example to hold out because that is really where the conservation fund adds a lot of value. Being able to make these transactions that really wouldn't otherwise happen come to fruition.

Monica (12m 1s): Not to get too in the weeds, but I guess I'm good this next question is sort of taking it a little bit further is you have an individual, you have landowners and, we're down in 45,000 ish acres of the hill country of Chattahoochee Hills outside of Atlanta. And you have landowners that legitimately want to be compensated for their land at market value.

And sometimes aren't really caring you know, they'll take the highest bidder if you will and you can't blame them, you know? And so, I know that you guys are able to come in with some different tax ideas or putting the land into conservation. If the individual maybe wanted to hold onto some of it and change some of the tax implications, and it doesn't have to be with Chattahoochee Brick company, but is that pretty typical?

Like, people don't realize, say, I've been here for six generations, I own the land and I'm land rich and, I'm just excited for somebody to come in and pay me top dollar for it because I'm not going to live here. I want to have a legacy for my kids that's financial. What are those conversations like? And what are some of the tools that a landowner could think about coming to you guys potentially. To benefit the environment and benefit the landowner. Cause I think that's the win-win right.

Jennifer (13m 14s): And this isn't just in Atlanta, correct? This isn't just Georgia. This is all over the place. Yeah. Just wanted to, put that out there. 

Monica (13m 22s): This is for anybody. Yeah. Who has a large piece of property. 

Stacy (13m 25s): Yeah, it's a great question. And the thing about conservation is there's a lot of conservation work that needs to be done all across the country. Right. And everything can't be in public ownership, right. I mean, again, There's not the capacity to even manage it. If we could do that, if we had the wherewithal to do that. And that is one place where I think the conservation fund really shines is you have to have a variety of tools that you can bring to the table to figure out how to incentivize conservation on the ground. And a lot of that, a lot of our work involves doing that with private land owners with land that stays in private ownership for forever. I'll use one example before we get into the working farms fund, the Conservation Fund has launched about 10 years ago, the working forest fund. And that is a very ambitious program that has a goal of protecting around 5 million acres of the most critically endangered, large, intact working for us around the country. And that does not, most of those properties do not end up in public ownership. We go out and buy these large working forests. We continue to manage them as working forests often more sustainably than they were before. 

And then we secure often public funding for the purchase of a conservation easement on the property. There are a lot of misconceptions about conservation easements, but the reality is you can have a conservation easement on a property that still allows it to be a working for us that still allows it to be a working farm, but it prevents it from being fragmented, broken up and losing a lot of those environmental ecological resources that these properties provide, that has been hugely successful we are well on our way to the first million acres conserved under that program and continue to ramp that up. That is just a good example of being able to bring conservation dollars to bear. Without removing land from private ownership. And we should say right, Monica, we're in Georgia, right?

I mean, land is a, there is almost nothing more personal for people than land ownership and you see it, you know, with families and everything else. And so finding these tools that incentivize landowners to do the right thing, and I'll say often they're already doing the right thing. This isn't forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Sometimes these lands have been passed down through generations. People want to see them remain a forest, a farm, the place they grew up in. And so their intent is there, but also it may be the inheritance for their children that live somewhere else. So they can't just for nostalgia's sake sell it, it, you know, they’re not compensated for that conservation work. So conservation easements are one of the best tools. They're not the only one, but they're one that we work with at a local, state, and federal level. And I think an important thing about the conservation fund that ties back to our dual mission is that of the eight and a half million acres that we protected around the country.

Over 3 million of those are working lands, working farms, working ranches, working forests. And that's because a lot of those are economically really important for the local communities there. But keeping them from being broken up and being developed are also really important for the environment long-term.

Jennifer (16m 44s): Can I ask you, I've heard of working farms and working lands, but what exactly does a working forest look like? Or what does that exactly mean?

Stacy (16m 48s): Well, when I say working forest, I mean that there is still selective timber being taken off of the property, for instance. But a lot of these, they're managed more sustainably. Some of them have actually generated a significant amount of voluntary carbon offsets because we're managing the forest more sustainably over the long term. But yes, it means that they're still working. We’re not sealing it off and leaving it exactly as it is.

Monica (17m 18s): Right. Well and the carbon offsets.I think that, that, again, with everything where we are today and the environment, obviously the more forest, field, farm, meadow that we can protect that doesn't turn into industrial, wasteland or just even just sprawl. The better off we are because we need that carbon to be sequestered and then further, we don't need the trees to stay there, right, to provide clean air. so you started the working forest fund 10 years ago. Have you been working on the working farms on that long? How did that come to fruition? And why did you guys then turn to farms?

Stacy (17m 55s): That’s a great question. And again, the working forest funds and national initiative, and these are forests all across the country. We've done a lot of farmland protection around the country over our history, but we've been thinking about it more recently, we didn't have one consolidated program that approached this and particularly around these larger metropolitan areas that are the source of a lot of farmland loss because of the sprawl and development that comes from those same places. So I'll just give a quick context for the working farms fund. And then we can talk about how it works, but. The reality is we're losing farmland at a very rapid pace. And around Atlanta and in Georgia is no stranger to that around large metropolitan areas and even midsize cities as well and that. happening very rapidly. The average age of a farmer in the US is 58 years old and every single year. So those trends are national trends, but at the same time, in a lot of areas like Atlanta, for example, The demand for more locally produced food is growing exponentially and the demand for more sustainably produced food is increasing.

People want to know where their food came from and grown which are really exciting trends. The other thing is there is this burgeoning group of next generation farmers, not brand new farmers. These are, people who are already farming, but they didn't inherit land as a fourth or fifth generation farmer and it is not as obvious a path for them to get the land access they need and the permanent ownership of farms to have a long-term viable business.

So it's just important to talk about those because those are not exclusive to Georgia or the Metro Atlanta region, but those are the pieces that we saw that required a new type of solution for trying to figure out the path forward. And so the goal of the working farms fund is to protect farmland that's at risk of being lost to development. To connect that farmland to next generation farmers and support those farmers by connecting them to markets, to business expertise, to technical assistance, to basically give them their best shot at having a viable farm business over the long haul. And then ultimately to get them in a position to own the land long term. And with those pieces coming together, we can begin to grow this more local, more sustainable food system in a really meaningful way. It might be helpful for me to talk about exactly how it works.

If we have some initial questions about it. We could talk about it. Basically the working farms fund is built as a sustainable model to really grow the number of these working farms over the long haul. We are putting together a revolving fund that allows us to go out, buy small to mid-size farms that are at risk of being lost to development. This is typically in the current Metro Atlanta, outside of Metro within an hour or two hour drive of the city farms in the range from anywhere from 25 acres, up to a thousand acres of land, we'll buy the farm. We will immediately connect each farm to a next generation farmer and enter into a lease with them with an option to purchase when they're ready, because typically that would be in a three to five-year period.

And then really importantly, while that farmer is on this working farms fund site, we want to help them get access to the resources they need to have a successful farm business. So a really exciting development of the program is that we have a partnership with Emory University, which Emory University and healthcare is the largest employer in Metro Atlanta.

Their credit. They have very ambitious goals for more local and more sustainable sourcing, both for their students, for their hospital patients, and for their employees. But they quickly realized, they were making great strides towards meeting that goal, but they did not have enough supply.

So thanks to Emory's commitment and their willingness to work with us, every farmer who enters our program will have the ability to contract directly with Emory for the delivery of more fresh foods, which is really exciting. So that's one example of the benefits and then working with other partners on the ground to make sure farmers get the business and marketing expertise they need, they get technical assistance, access to USDA programs.

And then we go and secure the public funding for the purchase of an agricultural conservation easement. And that's really important for this program. First of all, we're a national conservation nonprofit. So a conservation easement on that property achieves permanent long-term conservation. Easements are in perpetuity, which is a long time. Then secondly, they achieve another goal. They bring the current purchase price of that farm, which is that development value because of the development pressure emanating out from a place like Atlanta down to true ag land, farm value, and that ultimate purchase of the farm after year three or year five, much more affordable for the farmer.

And so at the end of the day, The easement funding, will we will secure that we will help the farmer get financing to purchase the farm from us on the backend at that step-down price. And we are rolling that funding into the next farm purchase. And so over time you can imagine the impact growing and growing as we're able to expand the footprint of this network of small to mid-sized farms, connected to markets and resources in a place like Atlanta.

Monica (23m 43s): And so just to, to clarify, the conservation fund buys it at the market rate, if you will. Right? Whatever that, acre per acre is, but then you sell it back to the farmer at the step down. And the conservation fund is basically, the spread on that is sort of the conservation fund, the benefit of the conservation fund is that, you're paying that difference to protect that land in perpetuity. Correct? Am I saying that right?

Stacy (24m 6s): It's exactly right. I mean, obviously we act like any rational buyer and we negotiate the best that we can but of course, essentially we are paying close to the current true market value and that's important, right? I mean, imagine a fourth generation farmer who has decided to sell their farm or they have to sell their farm as their kids inheritance, they would love to see it remain a farm, but again, they can't just sell it at a discount, I'll just say, so again, we would purchase the farm and then secure that public conservation funding to be able to get the long-term protection done and yes, it's a self-sustaining model over time. So we would be able to keep this program going on and on. 

Monica (24m 48s): So once that happens do you solicit people, like if I owned a hundred acres, are you looking for people to come to you in the Metro Atlanta that have potential farmland to sell to you guys? Like. Is that something that you're soliciting, if you will?

Stacy (25m 3s): Yes. And I would say, I mean, I know this won't surprise you. A lot of it is really through word of mouth and people in the programs here. I mean, we have done some outreach. we have to think about long term are the farms there and are the farmers there, right?

So those are two different things. But I would just say the amount of farmland under threat within a two hour drive of Metro Atlanta is such a huge number that finding the farms is not the biggest issue. I worry more about making sure that we have a sustainable pipeline of these types of farmers who want to own the farms long-term, although I feel really confident about that and looking at our first we'd have farmers as well, but yeah. That is we'll over time. We will continue to do outreach, but I think a lot of it is people hear about the program and just in their own community and then come to us quietly and talk about whether this is a viable path for them.

These are all willing sellers, it works for them and it works for us and we can match a farmer to that site. Then that's a good fit

Monica (26m 3s): Well and I would assume there's a lot of people that would like to have it stay a farm and, or, open space land and not be broken up into multiple plots for all the reasons we can think of, but they don't even know that that's possible because, they're just like, I've got to put it on the open market and instead they can come to you first.

Jennifer (26m 24s): And what are they selling? So, I mean, each farmer I'm sure is different, but are they selling to local farmer's markets or are these like going to like Whole Foods or other bigger scale markets where they can have longevity in that space to say, this is the farmer. This is what we use for XYZ supermarket. Where are they selling their goods actually?

Stacy (26m 39s): That’s a good question, it is partly dependent on the farmer, but I'll give you at least what I think is the general profile of a farmer in the working farms fund understanding that each one is a little different, but I'll use the example, Love is Love Farm, which is a farm team, five very talented farmers. Who've come together in a partnership to ultimately own a 65 acre farm in Mansfield, Georgia, which is in Newton county, about 45 minutes from the city of Atlanta.

These were all very successful farmers in their own right. Either managing farms for others or managing smaller scale operations. And everyone knew that these are some of the most talented farmers in the Metro Atlanta area, but they didn't have an obvious path to go by their dream farm. So they were the first team to enter the working farms fund program.

We put a farm back together actually, which was also exciting, 65 acres. And they just delivered their first round of sweet potatoes to Emory University last week. So I stood there as they delivered to the students and to Emory dining, which was really symbolic and just a really exciting moment to see that happen.

But they just started putting that farm together. But the interesting thing is they already had markets, they sold the farmer's markets. They sold to some of the best known restaurants in Atlanta. But as they're thinking about scaling up from basically a seven acre farm to a 65 acre farm, they're thinking about how they can expand those markets to more institutional buyers, more wholesale buyers. And so being able to connect them to an opportunity like Emory was huge. At the same time, they're expanding their direct online marketing with other groups, to be able to sell directly, but as someone who grew up and I grew up in small town, Milledgeville, Georgia, even though I've lived in Atlanta for 20 years now, one of the things that also excites me is it's not one particular channel. And one of the things that made me the happiest is when I was out on that farm for maybe the third or fourth time this year, they told me that this tiny, small town, Mansfield, Georgia, very rural and, even though it's in close proximity to Atlanta, not only are they delivering sweet potatoes and sunchokes to students at Emory, they also had already developed a relationship with the local market there in town and were able to take their fresh vegetables and some cut flowers they're working on.

And the nearby residents loved it because they knew it coming from a farm inside their town. And so it's an all of the above answer. And again, I think those will expand over time, but food insecurity, and the lack of healthy food options don't just exist inside of large Metro areas. They also exist in some of these smaller towns.

So I love to also hear the story about new markets in these smaller towns where these farm teams are working.

Jennifer (29m 40s): I think it's so good. It's so relevant right now. I think more and more people really want to reconnect with the land we've gotten so disconnected from our natural resources. I think in the past few years, like you just said that resurgence and that excitement for understanding where our food is coming from.

I love seeing that young people are really doubling down and saying, I want to know, I want to know where it's made. Who's making it. I want to know the farmer. I want to get to know everyone in that farm. I think it's an exciting opportunity because like you were saying about the loss of land, but there's this hope and opportunity and excitement for what can be and what should be coming down the pipeline it’s great.

Stacy (30m 20s): Yeah. And I'll just say personal anecdote is that I grew up in town. I did not grow up on a farm, but my grandparents live next door is dirt road, outside of town. And my grandfather had two, we call them gardens. I think they would qualify larger than most of the urban farms. You know, were maybe a couple acres each. My grandfather grew all of the food, vegetables for my extended family, which was my mom and her three sisters and their families. And of course I took it for granted at the time I have lots– I was also involved in some child labor practices, you know–

Monica (30m 49s): It’s legal if it’s family. 

Jennifer (30m 54s): As long as you’re not getting paid. 

Stacy (30m 56s): Yes, it certainly is, and I certainly was not getting paid, but I took it for granted. And my parents were out and everybody is harvesting food for the year, but the crazy thing is I didn't really have canned vegetables until I went to college. And I totally took that for granted. But now seeing what's going on with the local food movement in Atlanta and in a lot of other places around the country, I see how powerful it is and to your point, Jennifer, like how people have a natural connection to it, they have a natural connection to food and a connection to where it comes from is that natural connection to land. And it's just, the minute people, even if they didn't grow up in the same circumstances that I just described when they set foot on that form and see what's happening, it's just this natural excitement and people just connect. It's almost automatic. It's amazing.

Monica (31m 43s): And are you finding, I sort of asked the land question, but I'm sort of asking the same thing with the, young or next gen farmers, is that word of mouth too? Are you getting a ton of people calling you? Is there a match program that's happening right now? Are you inundated? Like what do you, need more farmers? Can people move? I mean, obviously they can do this anywhere over the country, but right now you're focusing on the Metro of Atlanta. Can people move here and become a next gen farmer with you guys?

Stacy (32m 20s): Absolutely. And I really do think that will happen. I think there is this element of if you build it, meaning the program, people will come because there are farmers seeking these types of opportunities all over the country. I was involved in some of the local food groups doing great work and the local food movement here. And one of the reasons we came to this program is the one obstacle I heard over and over and over again, that was almost insurmountable, was land access, and ultimately land ownership. It's expensive, it's difficult. As you're building out a farm business to tackle that, so yeah, we have a great pipeline of farmers.

I should quickly tell you, we've been building this out. You asked earlier how long it's about four or five years in the making, these things take time. And I know Monica has been in a lot of these conversations from the beginning. But the exciting thing is we got to launch in 2021, we hired our first working farms fund associate, my colleague Christiane Barsa, who's doing an amazing job recruiting farmers, connecting them to these farm sites.

And we are very close to getting to our first five farms. This year over 350 acres of prime farmland protected. We have secured almost $5 million of funding through USDA, NRCS for the funding for conservation easement and permanent protection of the land. We've received amazing operating support from foundations here in town.

And those farmers, as I said, are now starting to make their first sales to Emory, which is very exciting, but our ambitions are much larger than that. This is the beginning, but we really want to more than triple that impact next year in this geography. And we'll be getting ready to launch in Chicago early next year as well. 

And another thing that I want to touch on is those first five farms represent more than 20 different farmers because these larger sites allow farmers to come together to farm in new partnerships. The second farm that we acquired is for global growers network, which is a nonprofit who I've known for a long time. They do amazing work, helping refugee families had a lot of farming in the countries where they were being persecuted and now having an ability to reconnect to farmland here and grow food, both for their families and to supplement their incomes that will allow global growers in their new form.

To go from five farmer families up to around 15 foreign families. So impact, go on and on. But I think it represents a lot of different aspiring entrepreneurial farmers. But we also want to make sure that there's a diversity in these farmers. I'm very proud to say that over half of the farmers in our pipeline are farmers of color or women, farmers who are underrepresented in a place like Georgia. And so I hope that we can carry that on as well. And of course a lot of those farmers, especially black farmers in Georgia have been systematically shut out of farm programs and systems in the past. And so, creating these new pathways for access to capital access to farmland, and then ultimate ownership is a really important thing that needs to be done in, places all across the country. 

Monica (35m 30s): Tell me a little bit about, you were saying that you help them get access to capital. Do you have like a specific bank relationship? Because I know that that is one of the harder things is the land may exist, the farmer may exist. And even if it's at the right price, it's like, how do I get a loan?

Stacy (35m 50s): Yeah, it's a great question. We're at the beginning of putting together the different partnerships that will be needed to support these farmers. So access to capital, there are a lot of pieces of that.

Obviously we're providing a bridge to the capital needed for land. And we've had a couple of conversations with banks and with some other groups like farm credit and others who typically provide loans for farm acquisition. But we are looking to build a few key partnerships in each of these geographies so that they're comfortable with our program and that there’s a place where our farmers can go and get a loan maybe to buy equipment on the front end, and add to the farm infrastructure. And then ultimately to be able to buy the farm at the end of this process. So, we can't do all those things. So I don't pretend for a minute that the car in front is going to tackle all. But I think building a program and the credibility and the outcomes of a program like this will open a lot of new doors for financing in those different realms, but we're also working with those farmers from day one.

I mean, Christiane is working with them as they're saying, well, this is the investment that's needed for infrastructure and helping them try to find places to finance that over time. But I have to say, I really hope, there's a lot of funding that has gone into supporting farmers and into supporting local food movements around the country. I would like to see a lot of that capital, true social impact and philanthropic type capital go to lower the barriers to this financing that's needed for those farmers once they're on site, because we cannot handle all of that ourselves. And they really need the flexibility and the commitment of this lower interest rate, longer term capital to get them there. So that is a hope that we can continue to see new sources of capital as we go and I'll say for the Working Farms Fund, we have to keep growing the revolving fund to grow our, so we have a long ways to go. We need more philanthropic capital. We need more true social impact, investment capital. I'm very excited to say that the community foundation for greater Atlanta through their Go ATL social impact fund, just committed a million dollars to farms fund that allows us to utilize that low interest longer-term capital to go out and buy new farms, but we need a lot more of that type of commitment both here and in other places around the county.

Monica (38m 17s): And are you finding I guess corporate or univer–, like, would Emory, I know that they're saying we'll be a buyer, which is huge. Are they or other people like large corporations that may have large cafeteria and employees, like, are they looking to invest knowing that they have a foundation they can invest in it, knowing that there'll be a buyer on the other end and it accelerates them getting the product that they need. Are you seeing any of that?

Stacy (38m 45s): Yeah, that's a great question. So I will say on Emory one really important thing is, Emory's commitment to these long-term contracts with the farmers are, I just want to back up really briefly. That is instrumental to also helping those farmers be able to walk into a bank and get the access to financing and capital they need both retirement infrastructure, the purchase. So that is huge to have the commitment of a multi-year contract like that from someone like Emory. But the answer is that I hope there'll be two real threads that will grow over time. One is that we need a lot more institutions to commit to what Emory has done, right. Leading to more local, more sustainably produced food. you think about the number of fortune 500 companies and corporate campuses and the amount of money that they invest for their employees.

It's almost unlimited, the supply that's needed if that commitment was made. And there are lots of other institutions, hospitals, schools, if we really want to start getting this. 

Monica (39m 52s): Atlanta public schools. 

Stavy (39m 54s): Yeah. That would be huge. So there's that side of things, but to get to the other point, We've always thought it would take philanthropic capital and true social impact investment capital to get this up and running. But if we can reach scale both here and in other locations, I think that the funding to keep it going over the long haul should come from the supply chain to the companies whose consumers are demanding more local, more sustainable, and the healthcare industry, because no one stands to benefit more from this from having healthier, more locally produced food then the healthcare industry, insurers, hospitals, everyone that would benefit over a long-term investment in a healthier and more local food system. So, again, we're driving the train and building it here, but in the long-term I really think that is where we need to go. And we need to see those big commitments from companies to this effort.

Monica (40m 52s): All right. Well, those who are listening, I don't want to call anybody out, but I have some ideas. It really would be an amazing investment with their foundations. A lot of them are making sustainability commitments and many of them are serving food to many people, whether that's a venue or corporation, but I think your point about healthcare is obviously

Jennifer (41m 16s): It’s huge. And the massive school districts I'm even thinking here in New York City, I'm thinking about our incoming mayor who's very much on this train of how do we build healthier school systems, even prison systems, like everything needs to have healthier food. So yeah, my wheels are spinning. 

Stacy (41m 31s): I was driving to the global growers farm earlier this spring and it really kind of struck me like a lightning bolt because schools were still virtual in those places. And I was behind a school bus at like 11 o'clock on a Tuesday. And I was like, where's the school bus going? And it stopped in this rural county. And the school bus driver got out with a package in his hand. And then I saw the kid come down the steps and he was getting his lunch. And it just, it was such a stark reminder that if food insecurity does, again, doesn't exist just inside the city and schools are so important. If you can get healthier food, more local food and the commitment of schools, that would be huge. So I love to hear the stories about public schools making these commitments and other places, but there's a huge opportunity there. 

Monica (42m 26s): Yeah. Well, Stacy, is there anything else that you want to share with us that we haven't covered?

Stacy (42m 31s): I don't think so. I mean, I know we covered a lot of ground and we could keep talking. I just really appreciate you taking the time to highlight this. And I'll just say, this is an all hands on deck proposition, right? Again, the conservation fund is trying to pilot something that can be scaled and replicated here and in other places around the country. But we're going to need a lot of other people at the table, the organizations who support farmers and support farmland and these different places, funders, supply chain, healthcare industry, I really think we're building something that can really change the way we think about local food in our communities, but we need everyone at the table. So thank you very much for having me. 

Monica (43m 14s): Thank you, Stacy. Really appreciate your time.

Jennifer (43m 25s): Wow. There's so much I want to touch on about the conversation, but I guess we'll start with something that really stood out to me, which is the way Stacy talked about private landowners and incentivizing them to put their land into conservation. I never thought about this because I think it's easy for you or I, or some neutral outside party to say, well, of course you should do that, and this land should be protected or conserved. But it's often the case that people sell land out of necessity in order to pass something onto their families. And they often aren't in a position to take a route that doesn't provide them the most economic benefit.

Monica (44m): You're totally right. So part of Stacy's work is it seems particularly true of the working forests and farms funds is that these private land owners who are interested in selling would then receive fair market value for their properties, which then go into conservation in some capacity. And what the conservation fund is able to do is then promote best environmental practices on the areas of land that are being used for agriculture or timber.

Jennifer (44m 26s): Yes, it's really such an inspiring model for how we can actually move the needle forward to create a more generative model where land and workers are protected in addition where we can start to amend some of these really historic injustices.

Monica (44m 38s): And particularly here in the Southeast, you know, where we've had a really long and painful history of black farmers being systematically shut out of owning agricultural land, because they really weren't able to access capital.

Jennifer (44m 47s): I was also so fascinated by the discussion about how we can start to get large corporations and institutions to support local farmers. Because right now it feels like the conservation fund is providing the vital bridge between land and farmers and between farmers and the supply chain. But long-term funding and sustainability of this model is a bit of an open question right now.

Monica (45m 8s): Yes, absolutely. And luckily it seems like consumer demand is starting to catch up, but I do wonder about this seeming gulf between where we are now with say school lunches and where we could be if the public school system invested in locally grown nutritious foods.

Jennifer (45m 21s): God, absolutely. And yeah, there is this community aspect of students who get to know the actual human being who produces their food.

Monica (45m 30s): Well, we've got way more resources in our show notes for everyone who's interested in learning more about and supporting Stacy's work at the Conservation Fund.

Jennifer (45m 35s): We also want to let our listeners know that we’ll be taking a little break for the holidays, but we'll be back in 2022, which is also odd to say with some very exciting guest interviews.

Monica (45m 46s): Yes, very exciting, so stay tuned everybody. 

Jennifer (45m 48s): Bye Monica.

Monica (45m 49s): Bye Jennifer.

Jennifer (45m 50s): Till next time.