Skincare That's Grounded In Nature with Indie Lee

Jennifer (5s): Hey Monica. 

Monica (6s): Hey Jennifer. I'm so excited for our guest today. I've been using her products forever. And so I was thrilled to finally meet her. 

Jennifer (13s): Oh my gosh. Yes. Today we're speaking with my dear friend Indie Lee, the founder of an amazing skin care line at the same name. If you spent any amount of time in the beauty space and you were probably already very familiar with Indie, she has a really inspiring background. That was so fascinating to dive into today. 

Monica (29s): Yes, her story is really incredible. She went from a CPA at places like Ernst and Young and HBO to a home gardener and advocate for the slow food movement to quite literally battling for her life after being diagnosed with a really, really scary brain tumor. And then finally, today she owns and runs her own successful line of skincare products that are grounded in nature and supported by science. 

Jennifer (52s): We talked to Indie about conscious consumerism, why clean beauty can mean a million different things and why we should never let the perfect perfect get in the way of the good. 

Monica (1m 5s): Yes. Now let's get to our interview with Indie Lee. 

Jennifer (1m 8s): Good morning, Indie. Good morning, Monica. 

Monica (1m 11s): Hi guys. How's everybody? 

Indie (1m 14s): Good morning! 

Jennifer (1m 16s): Hi. We're so happy to have you Indie. I can't even tell you.

Indie (1m 20s): I am so excited to be here and to be looking at you. Cause so often we chat, but like it's on phone or on like apps, but not like this. This is kind of cool. 

Monica (1m 30s): I know, but nobody else gets to see us, which is nice too. 

Indie (1m 36s): I know which is even better, because this is not something I want to promote for myself. 

Monica (1m 40s): Although you do have some good bookshelves back there that are color coordinated. I like this. 

Indie (1m 47s): I'm visual. So for me, it's how I remember where my books are. I'm like, oh wait, that's in the red jacket. Okay. Let me go find that. That's how I know where my books are. So I don't know. Plus it looks nice.

Monica (2m 5s): It does, it looks great. Indie, Jennifer's been talking about you for ages. No pressure, no pressure, anything you're going to have to really bring it. 

Jennifer (2m 18s): Number one fan, literally, I can't like for years, I've been in love with Indie because first of all, Indie, you're one of the most beautiful souls I've ever met. And oh my gosh, you are your heart, your kindness, like just oozes out of you and how you treat others. And I just thought you were such a great representation of the beauty industry and nature and how we talk about biophilia and everything you do is really you are who you are. You walk the walk and it's just so lovely to see you. 

Indie (2m 50s): Oh my God. What a great way to make me feel good about myself, ask me anything you want.

Monica (2m 56s): Well, and now you can tell your staff that this was a good mental health day. 

Indie (3m 0s): That's right. I know. So I was telling Monica that what's so interesting is that we have closed the office from, you know, from today until we don't go back till Wednesday. And it's like basically mandatory. Everybody has to put their out of office on. We actually did a social media pause, a pause on our chat and our customer service to really walk the walk and talk the talk. And if we say we probably prioritize self care, then we need to prioritize it for ourselves. 

And being on social media is part of that. And you know, if everybody's off of my community managers, like, you know, answering DMS and whatnot, that's not self-care for her. And if you know, someone's on customer service, that's not self care. That's getting involved. And I sit, read like, Nope. And it's so funny. People are having an issue with it though. 

Jennifer (3m 45s): I'm sure. Right? Cause they're so programmed to just always be programmed. 

Indie (3m 47s): So programmed. And so I was saying like, my team saw this. They're like, well, you're going to reschedule. And I was like, no, it's with a friend. 

Monica (4m): I'm trying to feel it as a social impact podcast. It's really not for work, it’s advocacy. 

Indie (4m 8s): A hundred percent. And you know what? This fills me up having this conversation and spending time with Jennifer, Monica. I don't know you, but I'm sure by the end of the time we get to say this, build me up with her too. But like this is part of self-care for me is having these conversations. This isn't about work for me. This is really about creating awareness that needs to be spread. So prolifically. 

Monica (4m 31s): Yeah, well tell us a little bit about your background. You know, we, we sort of said, we'll have set it up in the intro, but you know, Jennifer's known you for many years. And so I wanted to hear how you guys kind of connected, but I'm assuming that's after you started your brand, your line. And so I love a little bit of background and I'll throw out that I love that you were a CPA and then you got into clean beauty. So I love it. So give us the, the high level. 

Indie (4m 54s): Sure. So it's so funny because yes, Jennifer probably wouldn't have known me prior to this iteration of my life and FYI I stalked her on social media. True story. So I, yeah, I'm a CPA. I went to Ernst and Young. I was an auditor when those people and I went over to HBO and was very, very fortunate, had an incredible career, very young, very early on where I got to manage the international finance division and I got to travel all over the world for them. 

It was unbelievable. And then I had my first child and, you know, travel international wasn't really on my radar after that. And so it was lucky, they gave me an opportunity to move over to the domestic revenue side. So got very involved with that. And after I realized something important, I don't love accounting. I just didn't love it. And I'm, you know, and I left, did some career coaching and development like recruiting for others. And then it was how to say it, like what do I do with my life? 

And it's so interesting. A friend of mine was building school gardens. I have a green thumb, toes, nose, you name it, very blessed. Get that from my dad. And I said, well, let me help you with the school garden business. I'll run your nursery. And they're like, we don't have one. I'm like, I know I'm gonna create it with you. So yeah, I built a 750 square foot greenhouse in my backyard that I'm staring at the other side of the screen and help them bring school gardens to life. And before I knew it, I wound up really in the office and not in the greenhouse and realized this isn't, I didn't want to do with the accounting. I didn't want to do the business side. I wanted my hands in the dirt and connected with nature. I was so getting more involved with the slow foods movement and understanding that if you teach children how to grow their own food, they're more apt to eat it. 

Jennifer (6m 49s): What year was that Indie? 

Indie (6m 51s): Oh gosh, that was 2005, 2006, probably about 2005, 2006.

Monica (7m): So early days. 

Indie (7m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. And I got very involved with that. You know, I looked at what Alice Waters was doing in California. I said, my gosh, this is what we need here. 

We need to slow it down and looking at, you know, obesity, add ADHD, all these things, auto immune diseases on the rise and going, we're just not putting nutrients that are so necessary. And we're so about the fast life and we're missing what mother nature has to offer and more important. We're not taking care of mother earth. And that was a huge issue. And stewardship of the year is so I built the greenhouse and I became certified, naturally grown. And because being certified, organic was just way too expensive and labor intensive for a small little independent of myself. 

And so I'd left the company and I just was doing it on my own. I was bringing edible flowers to Whole Foods. Microgreens to local restaurants, starter plants. I was selling and just really immersing myself and nature and slowing it down and really having that farm to table mind, body connection. And then my body decided it wanted to disconnect a little bit. And I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and I wasn't able to work in the farm or the greenhouse that I had built. 

It was just too much. I had to get it under control. And I went on medication, which helped control it. And my sister says she's pregnant. So I was like, oh, I'm going to create these products for her using ingredients. I mean, I had a lot of calendula, like a lot of calendula like I couldn’t possibly eat that much. And they was all coming into a harvest. I'm like, oh, and I had, I had so much lavender. And I said, oh, I can make salves and tinctures and whatnot. And I did it for the baby shower. And everyone said, this is what you should do. And I'm like, I don't think so. 

Like, who's clean beauty, come on for babies. What are you nuts? 

Monica (8m 57s): Tell that to Jessica Alba. 

Indie (9m): Yeah, right. Like my mother thought I was going to be like, Diane Keaton. I could be like Diane King with Baby Boom. She's like, you could have this whole cottage industry. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Do this. And I wasn't listening to the science. Like I understood. I didn't want anything potentially harmful going on. My newborn might, soon to be a newborn nephew’s, tush and body. 

Yep. I knew about the lack of regulation and I was so that's why I did it for him, not thinking about the larger picture. So the universe sends me another sign and literally says, I clearly need to hit her over the head. And I started losing my vision and go to the doctor, immediately went for scans and 45 minutes later after the MRI called and said, you need to come in. And I was diagnosed with a brain tumor and I, you know, Jennifer knows the story. 

When I was driving from my house to the doctor's office, I didn't call a soul. I just kind of sat with it. And it's so funny having this conversation because I can close my eyes and I can see the drive so clearly, I mean, it was like literally two streets. It was 15 minutes drive. But the colors of the leaves, because it was November 4th, was unbelievable. I mean, it was just the world became in Technicolor. 

And I realized in that drive that I was a passenger in my life and not an active participant. And I swore that this was going to happen for a reason. And I was going to live every day from that moment forward with purpose, with passion, be present, be alert to what mother nature is providing me, this incredible show. By the time I got to the doctor's office, I said, what is it, I'm going to be okay? And he said, I don't know, it's not cancer. We don't think it's cancer, but you need to see heavy hitters. I was told, I potentially had only six months to live, to get my affairs in order. 

I mean, there's one or two. And when I went to the doctor and said, I don't understand how this happening. He said, we're seeing more and more of these things being tied to the environment. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm eating out of a greenhouse. So I like, that I grow stuff in. Right. And he said, yes, that's the environment. You know what you surround yourself in. He goes, what do you put on your skin? What does your mom put on her skin? You know, we know babies are born with the toxic load and that was that awakening. It was like light bulb. Oh my gosh, I wasn’t listening to the signs and it was in that doctor's office. 

I'll never forget. I said, that's what this is about. I'm going to create a line that is safe and effective. That looks really beautiful on a shelf because 2008, 2009 things didn't look so pretty on a shelf. I mean, it was just coming onto the scene. And more importantly, I mean, Jennifer knows this. I wanted to empower others to live the healthiest version of their life, whatever that looks like. I like to say this, hi, I'm Indie Lee. And I'm an 80/20 person. It does not always have to be clean everything all the time. 

That's your choice. I just want to provide information and options. So, you know, the risks you make, the choice, whatever works for you is the right choice for you. I just want to provide some, some color around it and some information and that's it. And so fortunately for me, I found a doctor who was willing to give me a chance at surgery, said you had a, less than a 50% chance. I said, I'm dying let's go, oh my God. I looked into the surgical suite and said, today's a great day to live, put on some kick tush music and went to sleep. 

And many hours later when I woke up, I was able to see completely out of my eyes, Doctor said we got everything, welcome to the rest of your life. 

Jennifer (12m 38s): Oh God. It brings a tear to my eye. Every time you talk about that, 

Indie (12m 43s): I haven't stopped. I mean, it's unreal. Like in some ways it feels like it was just yesterday. And then another other ways I'm like, that was like light years ago. Like what that's, it's so funny because as we start to look at the brand and the evolution, it's so much more than just that Genesis or yes, it's very tied to why but now we need to take it to the next point. Or why, like, what are we doing to help contribute, to change? What are we doing to spread information about what sustainability really can look like in an industry like ours? 

Because it's not as easy as just put your stuff in recycled, you know, PCR, plastic, or, you know, or in biodegradable paper and all the, it's not that easy. The products still need to work and be stable. And it's having that conversation. It's having the conversation of, you know, a lot of little brands can't afford to do that just yet, but that doesn't mean they're not cleaning, they're not working. So what can we do to provide information for them or ways to do things. So it's, it's really interesting. I'm excited for the next chapter to, for this brand to continue to evolve. 

Monica (15m 38s): Is there a group that sort of is the industry clean beauty standard group or anything? 

Indie (15m 44s): No, there isn't, there are a lot of various different groups out there. Sure. But there isn't just one. We decided to get certified and have our products certified through cosmos association. So that's like a global umbrella. The eco cert you might see on bottles and boxes or soil association, soil association as a part of cosmos and cosmos is all about certifying everything from farm to face. So they take a look at the agricultural processes for the farmers, to the distillation process, to the manufacturing, to the component train. 

And every step along the way, every piece of that needs to be certified and approved. And it's an annual audit. So you know, as things change, we have to evolve with it. That's the stance we said, okay, you say it, an ingredient is no longer cosmos for, you know, whatever happening, then we're going to have to change with it. Right. 

Monica (16m 40s): Well, that was, I think it's interesting. We had Jeff catch on from Rodale and he's the Chief Impact Officer and, you know, talking about regenerative ag and we have an organic certified farm where I live here in Georgia, but learning about regenerative that really takes into account the people, you know, how are the, how are the people treated on the farm, the farmers, you know, are they thriving and flourishing, you know, and, and being paid appropriately. And then what happens to the animals on the farm, right? How are they being treated? 

And then the soil health and not that organic, doesn't obviously consider those things, but it really doesn't incorporate them. And so that I think is a fabulous change in agriculture certification. How do you continue to lead and get better? And, and, you know, Jennifer talks about this all the time. Like, you know, how can we just every day try and be better 

Indie (17m 30s): That's and it's, it's subtle shifts. You know, we've all heard that analogy that a butterfly, you know, flapping it’s wings can cause a tsunami. And that's really the truth of it. I mean, I was reading a report that they said, we have to make the changes now. I mean, UN came out with that report that said, Hey, it's going to take 30 years just to clean up. If everything was right now, it's not just about the swale, although I can go on and on and on about how that's important that you're farming nicely, but what are you doing to put back into the soil and make it richer than what, how you left it? 

Yep. But it's also, what are we doing to help the farmers? What are we doing to help people along the way, the animal health are we, and that's the thing for us like, okay, great. You have a manufacturing plant. If you're washing those vats out with, with these harsh chemicals and that's leaching into the water system, that's not clean. 

Monica (18m 24s): Oh, sure. 

Indie (18m 26s): You know, you are farming, but you're not paying fair wages for that. That's not, that's not appropriate either. 

Jennifer (18m 34s): I think that's it exactly, Indie. It's the fact that people see certain things that they want to see. But I think the key ingredients are the education, the education that you're giving and the transparency. That's not always easy. It's not just one size fits all for these giant businesses. They're creating these massive brands and the damage that they're doing compared to like a smaller indie brand like yourself Indie brand. It's it, it's, it takes a lot to go into that, to what you create. But it's also the fact that you can do it in a much more thoughtful way. 

That's also important because you're not just harvesting out of the ground all the time, but you're creating a movement to educate others on why we have to be more thoughtful on what we buy and where we buy it from. 

Indie (19m 24s): Conscious consumerism. That is what I think it's such an important piece about how we, as a society move forward and making the choices we, especially here in the United States, we're such a culture of extra, you know, if a little is good, more is better than we over consume. I mean, take a look at Costco is a perfect example. You know, it's like, it's really being very mindful about the choices you make and, and when it comes to products and personal care, you know, you can vote with your dollar. 

Jennifer (19m 48s): Yeah. And I'd love that you share your personal story. So openly, like on clubhouse, I've listened to you so many times and I've known you for so long, but to watch you like really in your garden and to see you do what you do and you show the growth of what you're growing and why you love it. And the smell of it, it's just very, like, I feel like I'm walking alongside of you and your journey. And I think that's so special for brand founders to know, and you don't have to like do millions of millions of dollars a year to make something thoughtful. And beautiful, and people can align next to you and say, God, I love your story. 

Cause I love watching, watching, I love listening to you on clubhouse too, because we just love,  they know who you are, almost how you share what you share. 

Indie (20m 33s): Thank you. I really try. I really try. And that's one of the reasons why I even have the, my own personal Instagram. It was always just the brand one. And I wanted people to see a very different vulnerable side of me. And that might not be for everybody who wants to follow a brand. So I realized, okay, this is who I am. And it's, it's hard. Cause I don't know how to do it. It's so funny. Yes. I understand the brand side, but me different. And I want people to get to know me, get to know that I'm a mom that I'm struggling with, you know, how do you help your children as they start to develop, you know, out in the world and you know, yes, a car can break down. 

How do I, you know, all those things that are a part of me, I am literally just like everybody else. I started this by selling my jewelry and emptying my 401k and going into significant debt. But like, I didn't know what I was doing. And I did this because I was passionate about creating change and making a difference with whatever portion of my life I had left and showing that you can, you can do those things by surrounding yourself with the right people and the right mindset. And I think that's an important thing for people to see, like, you know, I'm just a regular person. I there's, no, that's it. What you see is what you get. 

Monica (21m 46s): And after your surgery, which I think we were saying it was, ‘09. It did. Did the line, like, did it take you a year or two to sort of get the line off the ground? Or was it pretty quick? Did you start with one product? Like, how did you, like what was sort of the process? Cause the industry, and again, you guys are, so I have so much more history than I do, but you know, I feel like, you know, same thing when I started having kids, I was very concerned about what I was putting in them and on them because like, they were like fresh and new. Absolutely. And so I started maybe getting better at putting organic products in, you know, eating the food. 

But skincare took me a while. Like that wasn't something, my kids were born in ’05 and ‘07 at the time. Like, oh, I don't even know what was out there. 

Indie (22m 30s): Yeah. There wasn't much, I'll be honest. Yeah. Well, when I went home after that doctor's appointment, I literally opened, I have to be careful. I sound like I definitely have a long island accent. So I, I just have to pronounce, I opened my drawer, drawer and of all like the samples and the sachets and everything. And I just threw everything out. I said, oh my gosh. Oh my goodness, what do I have? I'm like, okay, now I have nothing left. What am I going to use? And then I started to really take a look at that. 

And I said, that's really interesting. And everybody kind of focuses on their face. Yeah. Which is so fascinating to me because this is such a small percentage compared to the rest of your body skin largest organ. Like, okay, well, that's great that you're focusing on that like 3%. What about the rest? Yeah. And so for me, it started with body care because I didn't, I look at the surface area and I'm like, oh my gosh, what is in my lotion? What am I bathing with? And all those things.

And that's where I started. So it was primarily bath products and body products. And I started when I was diagnosed. So when you're given like six months, you get to decide how you're going to spend it. And so when my kids were in school, I was researching and concocting in my house. Like the coconut citrus scrub, which is still in the line today was the first product that I formulated. Okay. In my kitchen. And so I had some body oils, some soaks and some scrubs. 

And then I was even using the body oils on my face. Cause I knew like what was in them. And it was just jojoba and yeah, it was basically jojoba, some essential oils. And you know, it was very rudimentary. But then I realized, okay, there's something here. People are, it's resonating. And then I started to work with a chemist and who I still work with to this day and started expanding the line into face. And it's so funny. Of course the face products take off and I'm like, don't forget your body. 

Monica (24m 34s): Right you’re like wait a minute, that's only 10%. 

Indie (24m 36s): Yeah. So I had, by the time I launched in 2009, I had already had like a full line of products that I had quote, unquote developed. I was very eager and I'll never forget I was in the hospital. I'd woken up, you know, probably been awake for five hours. Like out of neuro. I know out of recovery, I was still in neuro ICU for days. And I called my webmaster and I was like, Matt, we're turning on in an, in a month, I lived. And he's like, did you have the surgery? 

Like, you're really at my mother's like, she's on some drugs. You know what, turn the website on. That was my call. I know crazy. But I was so passionate. Like I lived, I'm going to create change. This is my calling. I have to do it like, no nothing's going to stop me. So it's pretty funny to see where the brand is now. And to look back on that and go, yeah, we did that. 

Monica (25m 35s): Yeah. Well, and there weren't any, and I feel like I kind of, you know, an aware person, but, but again, skincare was something that I've been cleaning up probably for the past. Maybe like three to five years, if you will. And, and it's interesting. I think a huge part of it that helped me was all of these sort of, I don't even know if you can call them independent retailers, but sort of the credos and the detox and even Blue Mercury, that kind of stratled. Right. But we have a really great one in Atlanta called I think it's Aillea. 

Indie (26m 10s): Love them. Catherine is one of my dearest friends, one of my dearest friends and 

Monica (26m 16s): And they sold me your superfruit. 

Indie (26m 18s): Well-done Catherine. If you're listening, 

Monca (26m 25s): You know, I was in there one day and that was like, sort of, I was explaining like, okay, I'm here. I'm trying to clean it up. This is what I refuse to give up this one product. 

Indie (26m 32s): And that’s fine. Yeah. That's the thing. You don’t have to give up everything, if you don't want to, 

Monica (26m 36s): And then I find like you can mix in or, and I, and I, and I haven't done like all the total deep research, but it seems like the well products are pretty good. So like, what's yyou know, not to say that you're not affordable, but you're more of a luxury line. And so if you can mix in these pieces, I think, you know, finding out what, what do you, you know, what's the high, low. 

Indie (27m): Exactly. And you know what, like for us, there's a high, low for everything. So like our, our products for clarity, right? For having clear complexion, those are all in, like, we have things for $19, you know, $16, because think about it, young adults are struggling, struggling with acne and, and don't get me on the food, body, gut, skin. Cause we can have a whole nother episode on that, but I want it to be affordable for them. I want them to feel good about themselves, but know that they're putting something that's good on their skin too. 

And so yeah, the line runs the gamut, but I agree. It was the smaller retailers. Like the Aillea's the Credos, the Detox Markets, the Citrines of the world that started it really. And I think that enough noise was made that all of a sudden, you know, the Sephora is the alt is the Blue Mercury's of the world, like Nordstrom, Hey, we went into Nordstrom early when they brought it in. And I was like, those, I love it. I'm like, yes. You know? And it's so funny because right now, you know clean gets a back lash a little bit is getting a backlash. 

And I think it's because there's some people who like to do use fear-mongering and as Jennifer knows, this is never going to come out, please, you know, give me a Chanel lipstick and I'm going to put it on if it's nice. 

Jennifer (28m 28s): Totally. That's the whole thing. Right. You've got to in small doses, do what you want to do. And like you said, you don't have to do everything all at once. Just do what makes you feel comfortable.

Indie (28m 34s): I always say one product at a time, because if you do it all at once, you will have that know what works and what does doesn't. But you know, Monica, to your point, we find that a lot of people come to the brand during a time of transition. So either they're thinking about having children, they've just had children, perhaps they've lost a loved one to something and they start to look at products. And so very early on before it was mainstream, it was really more than that. People are going clean and the transitional periods of their life, which I think is fantastic. However we get to it is great. 

But I think also the mainstream retailers starting to bring it in is also creating awareness that you're not sacrificing efficacy. 

Monica (29m 09): Exactly. Cause that's what we're both we're looking for, right, to work. No, no, no, no, no, no. And it's like one of the things that I've been like trying to find a good one that I like is deodorant and I got on your website and I saw that you have

Indie (29m 30): I was like, I'll send you one after this.

Monica (29m 31s): I’m super excited. I totally want to try it. Cause I've been trying, But I love yours. Like, it's like a burbon, like I love It's nice. So those are sort of like where I'm like, okay, you know, every, you know, and a lot of my girlfriends are also trying to go through and they're like, oh, I have this extra duh duh duh. It didn't work for me, but it might work for you. 

Indie (29m 54s): Yes, and it's a personal thing. Our bodies are so cool and everybody is so individual and your pH balance is and what you eat and chew on. So there's no two people that are similar, I guess, you know, obviously twins, that's a whole nother, but regardless environment plays a part too. And, then so that's why I think it's beautiful that there are so many lines that are going to, you know, what not one brand is right for one person or product is right for someone and we want to provide options, which is why we have so many different focuses that you can have. But, but I love buying other people's products too. Please. I want to support other brands. 

Jennifer (30m 30s): That's why I was so happy when I had beauty bar, I was able to just kind of introduce people to brands and be able to share their stories and kind of interweave certain products. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. And if you don't mind, I would love to kind of talk about why you choose the ingredients you choose. Are there certain things that you, you like using and why and are there certain things that you definitely always try and stay away from? 

Indie (30m 53s): Yeah, no great question. So obviously I told you we're cosmos certified, so there's a whole list of thousands of ingredients that we can't use because don't forget, I need the ingredient to be certified too, which means annually audited ingredients. So there's a whole bevy. So that's part of it that kind of provides us with the roadmap and addition to the, you know, you can call them the dirty dozen. You can call them whatever you want, which is a whole grouping of different products, which, whether they're parabens, products, all those ingredients that we stay clear of. 

And you know, what we like to say is when in doubt, formulate without or formulate out. So we had an ingredient that was at one point considered the creme de la creme of clean naturally derived preservative. And then there was enough that came and said, well, there's questionability and we formulated it out. So, you know, we're like, okay, we're hearing enough. We're going to formulate it out and start from scratch on those. So we're very mindful of that. And then in addition for choosing what we do use, we're looking at products and ingredients that are sustainably sourced. 

I mean, again, that's really a cruelty-free always, grown where they're, you know, optimal growth, right? Because you want to make sure that you're harnessing the power of this plant, where it's grown optimally. If I grew a lemon tree in my backyard, it's not going to grow as optimally as if it's going to grow in the tropics are in Florida, you know what I mean? Same thing with an avocado. It's just not even going to really bloom for me. Right. So taking extracts from it, it's not going to be the healthiest, most potent. So it's having those conversations and sourcing ingredients where they're grown optimally and they're grown sustainably. 

They are certified for us, for cosmos. So that is really what goes into our sourcing. I mean, we have on our site an entire dictionary of what we will formulate with as well as what we won't formulate with. And sustainability is at the forefront of this? We want to leave the world better. Not worse. 

Monica (33m 06s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's such a great, simple, but sometimes very difficult, 

Indie (33m 08s): Simple, but it's not easy. No, 

Monica (33m 10s): Not easy. Example of know reformulating, like that takes time. It takes money. You know, 

Indie (33m 15s): It could change how the, feel, the texture, the smell. And when you have a runaway hit and you're like, oh my gosh, I need to change this. What is the impact going to be? That can be very scary. But at the bottom, you know, out of the crux of this, I created the line to create change. Am I perfect? No, so no one takes me like, I'm not God, like, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. I take accountability for those mistakes, but I'm never going to be perfect, but we're going to do the best that we possibly can and do the right thing. And so when we have to switch people aren't always happy with us, but we know in our hearts that it's the right thing to do. 

And so we've taken products off and people are angry and bring it back and blah, blah, blah. But we had to say that wasn't the right decision. 

Monica (34m): Yeah, I love that. Well, it's leadership though. 

Indie (34m 02s): It's leadership and listen, financial hits and all those things, but it's the right thing. 

Jennifer (34m 06s): It’s the right thing. And you're evolving, you're constantly learning. And I remember when you and I spoke, this was like maybe 2010, 2011, you were changing even like your packaging. Yes. So can we actually even discuss, like what goes into what you're seeing now in terms of waste and packaging and how you have to evolve to really, and it's hard. It's not easy to do. 

Indie (34m 26s): It's really hard. The group has to be stable. And that's a problem we run into when we go on to our productions, like, okay, we have this great new product, but it's not stable in any of the refillable recyclable, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you've got this really cool, innovative technology, but it's not going to stay like in the texture, you know, it'll start to break out, break on. You're like, okay. So it's very difficult. And I don't think that the consumers are really aware of the challenge that is there. 

I mean, we go through the RIP, we go through stability or go through shelf life, all those. And we're not going to compromise that just because we want to say, okay, well look, it's in a refillable. Okay, well, it's not stable. So it's very difficult, but we are making the changes. So we've switched over to our glass is PCR, right? So 20% PCR, we have our new jumbo braining cleanser, which is a lower footprint because you're getting more products in one bottle and the bottle is PCR, right? So we're able to provide that. 

And that's like a, one of our best sellers. You're like, okay, people want in the shower, this is non-glass it's PCR. So we're making those shifts. You'll see some other things we're working with refillables now. So stay tuned every time we do it, we're having the conversation is what is the end of life for this? But is it made of, is this fit for, you know, the consortium's that we're a part of like credo. I think we signed up for packed cosmos, you know, all those Grove, you know, all those retailers, you were making such an incredible shift, are we staying in line with that? You know, how do we get rid of single use? 

Like things like that, like the peel pads, what are we, how are we going to change that? So we're having those conversations. I just hope that the consumers realize it's not as easy as one and done. If I have all these bottles, right. I have to use them up because if I toss them, that's not sustainable. And you know, someone like me, we're, we've got minimum runs. So maybe we had a buy 50,000 pieces of this, you know? So before I switch something, because now it's available in PCR, I need to use up what I did. 

Otherwise. That's just going into the landfill. That's reasonable. So I think brands need to, I think consumers need to realize that. And that's not just me, that's everybody. So I'm very lucky because the people who invested in me on Cora holdings, they have an entire, like a sustainability group. And that goes through that. And it's just, it's incredible to have people who have invested in you who are wanting to make the change that they want to see. Right. 

Monica (37m 01s): And you have a recycling program. How does that work?

Indie (37m 10s): You hold on. So we do know you could send one at a time to people, but I'm like, well, that's not great for the maximum footprint. So what we do is we say on, once you have three back, like three, you can go onto their website, download like the, the little form and everything, and then just mail it back. And it goes through a recycling program. Nice. Yeah. And we're actually signing up with another one. So more details on that one too. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really important part to us and anybody who returns a product to us, like say you don't like it. 

I can't imagine that. But if you don't, like, listen, that's possible. Maybe not like the way the bringing cleansers smell, like we go ahead and everything is rinsed and then recycled as well. 

Monica (37m 51s): Okay, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a whole nother side of it. It's just so hard. And it's like, you know, I even am like, okay, do I? How do I clean it out? Because I know that there's issues with even like recycling my jar of pasta sauce. Like if it's not cleaned out in the glass, 

Indie (38m 09s): They do that. They just take it and they put it in and they don't realize that that's not actually how you do it. Or even to like, you have to cut the tube, you've got to rinse it out. And then depending on what the top is, and this brand should tell you, is that curbside or, you know, or do you stick it in the recycling? So you've got to look and that's what we are doing is we provided that information on our site and continually on social media. This is how you recycle it. It's not just, oh, look, I'm done. Throw it into the recycle bin. 

Monica (38m 30s): Right. Have you guys ever thought of opening up your own store? 

Indie (38m 33s): No. No, I have not. I am not looking to get into the real estate business. 

Monica (38m 46s): True. It's a whole nother ball game. Yeah. That's amazing. So where is like Indie Lee going? So you talked about a tiny bit. I'm just going to like my own what if… gut health? 

Indie (39m 05s): I don't, you know, we've talked about it. I don't know. Again, another unregulated industry it's kind of freaky, so I'm not sure. And there's some other brands that are doing great on it, for me, I'm really happy in the space that I'm in, but bringing other verticals in to it, which you'll see and a completely new chapter or vertical that's coming out October. So a new product product's coming out October 13th. So that'll be really exciting, but we have, we've taken a look at what people say. 

We have post consumer surveys and we'll say, oh, if Indie would come out with a deodorant, we tried to do a deodorant for two plus years. And then when Taos air came out with theirs, I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this one. And so we did a collab with them. We were able to bring it out. But we have some other ones that people have asked us to go into like sunscreen and, you know, color and things like that, where people are like, oh, Indie, just do it. Please do it. So we'll say, might surprise you with some things coming up. 

Monica (40m): No, I absolutely love that. Like continuing to grow is like so fun, and I’m super excited.

Indie (40m 05s): You know more education, and trying to bring awareness and really champion this concept of what it takes to go clean, but not in a negative way. The scaremongering has got to stop. 

Monica (40m 15s): It’s got to stop, and you know the shame. The shame of like, Ugh, you didn't whatever, right? Like, you’re not doing this, and you’re like oh my God, I’m trying. 

Indie (40m 32s): There is no such thing as perfect. Now, you know what? We're all perfectly imperfect. And we have to stop shaming people or telling them what is right or wrong for them. 

Jennifer (40m 41s): Yep, so glad you said that Indie. It's all the judgment we don't want to, like, we're not judging. We're not, I think it's all about, that's why Monica and I want to do this platform, it’s all about educating. I learned so much from each guest and from you and from everyone that comes on just like blown away by the education that comes with these conversations that we get to then amplify. And I think that’s the key, right? 

Indie (41m 07s): Knowledge is power. Knowledge is power. And I just want to help educate and empower people so that they live the healthiest version of their life. And by the way, I always say, even if it's not my products, if you heard my story and realize, sometimes the world is going to give you lemons and you can go out there and make limoncello and choose joy, then you know what part of the change I wanted to create it wasn't just skincare. It was, oh my gosh, this is not a dress rehearsal. Go out there and live, do something great. Leave the world better than how you came into it. 

You know, those things and feel like you, you live for a reason and only you can do that. And that's part of what this brand has always been about too, it's mindfulness. 

Jennifer (41m 45s): Oh, I love that. I love your mindfulness Mondays. I love you. No, actually I want to ask you, cause I know we have on a time limit here, but because you are walking your walk in nature. So can you kind of talk about like the importance of nature in your daily life? I know you're in your greenhouse a lot. Maybe you're growing something right now, but can you give us a little bit more of what nature means to you and your daily life? 

Indie (42m 3s): To me, that's all energy, right? So there is, I mean, you guys know it better than I do. There is an energetic, there's a vibration, right? So getting out there and getting into that flow, I think is so important for longevity and you know, for your obviously biological health, but your soul health, your mental health, your, you know, the whole thing. And so for me, it's going outside every day, every day and grounding. Okay. Well I’ll admit when it's ice out, I typically stay away from that. So like, I try, even if it's on the porch, then I'm closer, but everyday grounding, every day in the greenhouse, even when it's snowing, I'll go out there and check on things. Like typically don't grow too much over the winter, but yeah, I'm out there with the dogs. I mean, listen, my dogs have to go out every day and then that's another forcing, even when I don't want to have to go outside. And then once I'm out there really breathing that in. 

So it's, you know, for me, it's hiking as much as possible. Today I'm going horseback riding. This was, this is completely new to me. It's just another way to connect with animals and nature. So, you know, evening trail rides. Yeah. Just finding ways to do that. And that's been a part of my life for so long, you know, obviously, you know, now the generous Genesis started with farm to table and slow food, but that's a very, very critical part of my life is how am I, how am I connecting with mother earth on a daily basis? 

Jennifer (43m 46s): Yeah. And you're giving yourself permission to do it, which also then infects like other people that are following you and watching you like, wow, Indie can shut off and like be connected to nature. Then I can. 

Indie (44m 02s): That's it. I, you see me, I try to do as much of my, my conversations outside on my front porch, because that is my happy place. And I am out there 20. I mean like all seasons I am now, I got a little fire pit out there now, so I can be on my covered porch even if it's raining or anything. I want to be out there again. I think it's so healing. I mean, that's the only word it's healing. I feel like everything we need is out there in nature. If we go and look hard enough and it’s so important for us to conserve, not even conserve, it's not even sustainable sustainability anymore. 

It's gotta be regenerative. It's gotta be putting back and we've taken him depleted for way too long. And it's finding simple ways. And by the way, I have, I have, you know, a journey in this, myself on how I could even how I can continue to be better. So I don't want people to think, oh, she's like perfect at– no, I'm still learning. 

Monica (45m 03s): Yeah, now we have a lot of that where people in our neighborhood are like, can I live there? You know, it seems like everybody's this or that. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. We're real people. We have all sorts of flaws. We do some things wrong. We do some things right. But I do think community is so important. And so like, I love that you have a podcast. I love that you have your Indie’s journal and you know, you do your own social because building that community, I think is where the power is. 

Indie (45m 29s): A hundred percent. I mean, Jennifer knows. I've always been like, I want to build a community. And I can't say that I want to build a community if I'm not a part of it. And that's why I go in, I go off and comment as me. So they go, oh, is that the community manager? If it's me on my channel, go like XXI so people know that it's me or I'll be like, why am I commenting from the brand? Let me go into mine and comment. Do you know, this is me. This is me. I am a part of this community. We're building this community together. We're learning how to be better. We're making mistakes and learning from them and leaning into them, which is why I love what you guys are doing. 

You're not judging. You're trying to educate and not doing, again in a shaming way because let's face it. There's a lot of fear-mongering in the sustainability, biophilia world. Also, when people go, well, you're not doing it right. You guys know it. I'm going to say, yeah, we're trying, you're trying, you're doing better than you were the day before. 

Monica (46m 20s): And that's the whole goal. It's like every day we, if we can just bring like one new person sort of into this sort of like what, we're sort of calling a biophilic movement, but it's not like a membership or, you know you have to get approved.

Indie (46m 34s): Wait, I don’t get a membership card after this? 

Monica (46m 37s): Oh sorry, hold on, I’ll make one for you. But I just think it's like, everybody's already in it. You're already a part of the biophilic movement. You just have to recognize it. Right. And then you can bring to it what you have available to bring. And that may change day to day. But I love that you say, you know, it doesn't, you know, the, whatever that regime is, whether it's the food you're eating or what you're putting on your body, or we talk about fashion too, you know that there's, you know, ethical fashion, like, you know, do your best. 

Indie (47m 14s): That’s it. If you do one good thing. Yeah. Part of this movement a day, you're better than you were when you didn't. And then you realize it's those little steps that can create significant change globally. And that's what gets me excited. 

Jennifer (47m 32s): Wow. Okay. I think we should end it right on that. That's a great message to go out on Indie seriously. Where can we, where can we follow you? What's the best way that we can help support you? 

Indie (47m 42s): The brand is Indie Lee. Indie Lee, which is also my name. Now, that's a whole nother podcast, but you can find me on social at Indie_Lee, which is the brand page. And if you want to chat with me, which I love, go to Indie Lee, indielee, no space, no nothing. And that's my personal Instagram. And I do answer every, it's just me. It's just me hanging out and trying to have conversations with people. 

Monica (48m 16s): I love it. I love it. Well, we're so excited that you're a part of the movement and I'm so excited that I get to meet you and hopefully will meet you in person. 

Indie (48m 24s): Oh my gosh. Yes. I was supposed to go down to Atlanta to Aillea. I know that with COVID we're like trying to figure out when I know, I know, but I am dying to get down there and maybe there's even like, I can come visit.

Monica (48m 37s): I think you need to come stay with us at Serenbe. And then I really want to open an Aillea here. I told her that when I was in there, I was like, do you want to open it? I mean, I don't know. You know, I'm like, do you want to just open one?

Speaker 0 (48m 55s): Oh, well, I can hook you up with Catherine. Listen, she's, she is a powerhouse, a powerhouse. She's done this herself. It's unbelievable. And she has stores in Charleston, Charlotte, Atlanta, Raleigh, and Denver. She is unbelievable. She's also like my son's emergency contact. My son's in Boulder. And like, that's his emergency. If you can't get in touch with a mom, that's who you call. 

Monica (49m 27s): Ohh, Is that where she lives now? 

Indie (49m 29s): That where she, she lives in no, she lives in Denver and she wanted to bring clean beauty to like tertiary markets and not just the mainstream, which I love. I love that. She's just a beautiful person inside and out and what she's creating is beautiful. And so, yeah, I agree. She should have it there. 

Monica (49m 45s): Okay. Let's make it happen. And you can come do a whole demo and masterclass Jennifer. Oh we can walk the trails and have a whole Indie weekend. 

Indie (50m 03s): Amazing. I love it. I’m gonna keep you to it. Monica’s my new best friend.

Monica (50m 8s): Yeah, we don't, we don't mess around when we invite you, we're serious. Seriously 

Indie (50m 18s): I mean, you know, I commented. What sort of heaven are you in?

Monica (50m 20s): It’s the biophilic heaven. 

Indie (50m 23s): Oh gosh. Oh my gosh. I love it. 

Monica (50m 27s): Well, Indie, thank you so much. And Jennifer, thank you for connecting us and we're thrilled to have you, and we're going to spread the word. 

Indie (50m 33s): Thank you so much for having me and for giving me the opportunity to share my love. I'm so excited. I feel so warm. See, this was a self care even.  

Monica (50m 40s): I think so, tell your team. Good for the brand and good for Indie. 

Indie (50m 46s): Absolutely, Absolutely. Have a great rest of your day, guys.

Monica (50m 48s): You too

Indie (50m 50s): Thank you 

Monica (50m 57s): Jennifer, thank you so much for connecting us and our listeners with Indie. She is so great. And I can't wait to do things with her. 

Jennifer (51m 08s): I knew it, I knew you would love her. She just radiates sunshine. Doesn't she? She's just a power of positivity. 

Monica (51m 15s): Yeah. Yeah. And her story is so inspiring. I mean, talk about lemons to limoncello. 

Jennifer (51m 21s): Isn’t that the truth. She's really someone who walks the walk and leads by example in everything she does, but not in a preachy, you're a monster if you're not perfect kind of way, she strives to do her best. And, and yet it's like really totally open about shifting gears. If she learns that there's a better way to do something. 

Monica (51m 35s): Yes. And just going off of how she walks the walk, she really holds her brand to a really, really high standard. I mean the cosmos standard, that was something totally new to me where every single aspect of the sourcing and production process is analyzed and audited every single year. That's no joke. And I have so much respect for anyone who recognizes the importance of this regenerative model. 

Jennifer (51m 59s): Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said that that's so true. And the thing is her business isn't suffering for it. I think so many people who run companies and have businesses are so worried that subjecting themselves to this kind of rigorous standard will hurt them in some kind of way or their bottom line. I would just tell people to look at Indie. 

Monica (52m 19s): Absolutely. And she's so open about what she still needs to work on. Like any of us, she's made these big strides in how she packages products, but also like these things are difficult and products have to be stable and have efficacy. And it's a constant thing that she's really working on, which is a really great example for all of us. 

Jennifer (52m 38s): Exactly. Just a really inspiring example of someone who is running a successful business in a really healthy and biophilic way. 

Monica (52m 40s): All right, Jennifer, we'll chat again in a couple of weeks. 

Jennifer (52m 42s): Okay. Bye Monica.