Flight Path and Lost Waters with Urban Designer Hannah Palmer

Monica (3s): Hi, I’m Monica Olson.

Jennifer (5s): And I’m Jennifer Walsh. 

Monica (7s): And you’re listening to the Biophilic Solutions podcast where every other week we sit down with experts and thought leaders across industries in order to explore the innate connection between humans and nature and why we need nature to thrive. 

Jennifer (18s): We truly believe that in order to tackle the global environmental problems we’re facing, we as humans must reconnect to the natural world and come to a better understanding of how we fit in and how we’re so interconnected. So in every episode, we’ll interview new guests to help us uncover and highlight nature based solutions to get us on a path to greater health, tackling climate change, and ultimately getting outside and connecting with nature. 

Monica (41s): So let’s get to today’s episode. 

Monica (44s): Hey Jennifer.

Jennifer (45s): Hey Monica.

Monica (48s): Jennifer, who are we talking to today?

Jennifer (50s): Okay. So today we're talking to Hannah Palmer, an urban designer and Atlanta native, whose first book, Flight Path: A Search for Roots Underneath the World's Busiest Airport, traced the expansion of Atlanta's Hartsfield Jackson airport, and the effect that it had on the surrounding communities and the natural landscape. Her research led to the discovery, the Flint river, Georgia's second longest river whose headwaters flow literally underneath the airport. Many local residents, Hannah included, had absolutely no idea that the river even existed.

Monica (1m 21s): I know it's kind of wild. So Hannah is now one of the major figures behind finding the Flint. This is a collaborative project whose vision is to rethink and redevelop the area surrounding the airport with the Flint river integrated into its vision. She's working alongside the Conservation Fund. Who many of you know, through Stacy Funderburk who our listeners are familiar with, we had him on in December. She also works with American Rivers, the Atlanta regional commission, and BeltLine's Ryan Gravel.

Jennifer (1m 46s): So Monica, I have to ask you, since you live south of the Atlanta airport, did you know anything about the Flint River?

Monica (1m 54s): Absolutely no idea until coming across Hannah's work. I even asked our producer Katrina, who's an Atlanta native if maybe she had heard about it at any point growing up and she had no clue as well. So I think the whole notion that there's a major river flowing underneath the runways and parking lots is pretty astounding to a lot of people.

Jennifer (2m 10s): It's really wild and so fascinating. So let's get to our conversation with Hannah Palmer.

Monica (2m 17s): Hi, Hannah, how are you?

Hannah (2m 18s): Good morning. I'm great. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Jennifer (2m 24s): We are so thrilled to have a new year and to be with you to discuss everything that you're doing in the world and all the hard work. And we’re excited that you’re here today. So thank you for joining us.

Monica (2m 32s): Yeah. And one of the first things we are always are curious about is your background and you’re here in Atlanta as I am, while Jennifer's in New York. but tell us a little bit about, you know, have you always lived here? How did you become an author? And how did you sort of get interested in, conservation, but most specifically here in Atlanta?

Hannah (2m 54s): I'm an Atlanta native. And for those who are from Atlanta to be more specific, I'm from Forest Park, Georgia, which is in the airport area. It's kind of a suburb on the east side of the world's busiest airport. Let's see, I grew up in Atlanta and went to college in Atlanta and I went to Agnes Scott college, and then moved to New York immediately after, because I was obsessed with writing and writers and publishing. And after a few years in New York, came back to Atlanta and had definitely fresh eyes for this city that I thought I knew so well, it changes so fast. If you leave for a couple of years and come back, it's like a different city. And though I'd been interested in writing my whole life and definitely a bookworm, reading and obsessing over words, it wasn't until. It came back to Atlanta and I had this fresh perspective that I started writing about Atlanta, about the south, about history, about how cities change, why some places, decline and why some places thrive, and that writing and digging, which was totally amateur, led to my blog, which became my first book. And we'll talk about that some more. And then really has led me into a career in urban design and urban conservation.

Monica (4m 4s): Yeah, that's so exciting. And Jennifer and I are always out and Jennifer, especially walking nature, finding rivers and stuff, but tell us a little bit about the Flint, because I had only heard about it from your book and we're just south of the airport, so it's very close to us. We'll go through the airport all the time, but who knew there was a river running underneath it. So tell us a little bit about that research and how that came about.

Hannah (4m 28s): You're not alone. Don't feel embarrassed if you've never heard of the Flint River. People in Atlanta, when I talk about the Flint River, we first have to clarify that I'm not talking about Flint, Michigan, or I don't have to kind of narrow down, no the second longest river in Georgia is the Flint river. And it starts right here, actually in East Point College Park and flows underneath the airport.

Despite having grown up in Clayton county seeing places like Flint River Village, Flint River road, I had no concept of the Flint River. I had never really seen it. Maybe I've driven over it, but there's a reason. The river is all through Clayton county, but there's no place, there's not a park or a trail or a place to go swimming or fishing or hiking.

And unless you have private property on the Flint River, you don't even know about it until further into south Georgia where there's public parks and access points. So I'm like you, never heard of the Flint River until I started studying the airport and reading about the history of the airport expansion.

So I mentioned that I'm from Forest Park, but originally, my family lived in a little town called Mountain View, which was, it's no longer a city. The entire city was bought out by the airport. And that is the subject that got me interested in writing about the airport's effect on the south side, because I discovered that not only my family's home was bought out by the city during the late seventies, early eighties, when the airport was expanding, but hundreds of families, thousands of families like mine were bought out or relocated, did this massive government program starting in the seventies and lasting all the way up through two thousands.

So that saga, which is both personal and quite an Atlanta story, forms the basis of my book Flight Path. In the process of that research, I was reading about the building of the fifth runway. And I read that they had to reroute a Creek called Solomon's Creek and they had to do all this infrastructure development to contain the Flint River.

And that was the first where I was like, wait a minute, there's a river under the airport? Do people know that? Is that normal? And like so many things with the Atlanta airport, there's nothing normal about this airport. It really pioneered the development of major airports that the whole world has sort of watched and studied and copied, really, since it was founded a hundred years ago. So after I started learning a little bit about the river under the airport, I was actually approached by a team of conservation groups, including the conservation fund, and American Rivers and the Atlanta regional commission had hired my friend and colleague Ryan Gravel, the BeltLine guy to do some thinking about restoration opportunities around the airport, as related to the Flint headwaters.

Five or six years ago, nobody knew where they were. I mean, you had to be a historian or maybe work for the water and sewer department of the city of Haysville or something to even have a concept of where the rivers headwaters were. So I joined this team of awesome conservationists and urban designers and stormwater experts. And sort of brought my historical knowledge of the area and also my passion for the south side and Clayton county and the airport area. And together, we started digging into the historical maps, the historical records of Springs, and trying to trace the river's actual source.

And that's why we started calling it Finding the Flint. Originally we were just talking about the Flint headwaters restoration project, it had no name. But we refer to it as finding the Flint on our outings, in our research, in our conversations with people who might remember a river in the area and actually had experience of swimming or fishing or playing in the creeks of the area.

So through that digging, we start calling it, finding the Flint and this big crazy project was born.

Jennifer (8m 12s): I think that's so interesting, Hannah. And also the fact because Monica and I talk about this all the time is that when we spend time in nature, there is a sense of exploration discovery that I think we all innately have within us. And that your sense of discovery led you to want to research more and then go down this path of a really real discovery, and exploration of like, what is here that I didn't even know existed. How come people don't know anything about it? Because here I am sitting in New York city. I didn't know anything about it, but I fly to Atlanta for decades. And I get to learn from you about what exactly is happening in the Flint River and why it's important. So I think your work is so interesting to me and to so many others of that sense of discovery is so necessary right now. 

Hannah (8m 56s): That's right. And it definitely feels like a treasure hunt, like a scavenger hunt.When I take people on tours of the headwaters, we're poking around a barbed wire fences and looking down storm drains and going back to old maps. And there's a real sense of like, oh, we're explorers, we're trying to find something that is still here. It's just buried underneath the landscape.

And there's something really empowering to residents who either remember the river and remember a different version of the landscape that was probably more livable, honestly. Mm. They remember playing in creeks and when creeks were safe to play in and not so polluted by urban runoff, it’s empowering for them, but it's also empowering for new residents and a new generation who are living in this area who want to see more sustainable development, who know that this area is rich with resources, with history, with culture, with wildlife, honestly, and they see this work with finding the Flint as an opportunity to rethink the airport area and to knit together things that have been disrupted by runways and freeways, and to try to come up with smaller scale design that kind of fits into people's backyards and lives really enriches our lives with play and, spaces to meditate, spaces to escape from the noise and the concrete. And it's all right there. The treasure is right there. The hard part is reconnecting all these things that have been disrupted over decades of growth with very little concern for the river and what happens downstream.

I'm excited that you like hearing about this in New York. Because I'm sure you're in a disrupted watershed too. 

Jennifer (10m 26s): Right and that's exactly your work is making me question and wonder what's happening in my own backyard. Whether it be in LaGuardia, JFK or Newark, they're very close, but what could be happening is now I'm thinking about what's happening down river literally.

Monica (10m 37s): Well, and I think that the history of these urban projects, these huge urban projects, I lived in Grant Park, which is a neighborhood in Atlanta, that basically was like disrupted, completely torn in half by the I-29 freeway. And I grew up in California, so I don't know the history of it, but when we moved there, we were like, this is really weird that there's this freeway in the middle of like basically breaking up this whole neighborhood, beautiful old Victorian homes and whether it's the airport buying up the land or perhaps they use eminent domain as a combination of it, I think that there is a history and New York is the same way.

A lot of cities around the country where the government just comes in and says, this is for the best or there's a financial incentive, and so there's a sadness to that and so this brings this wonderful light for me personally, and I really loved, I recommended we'll put a link on the show notes, the video that's on finding the Flint. That was really fun to me because that started to show all of the, it's not as if the airport's not embracing this, you've got your Hartsfield-Jackson airport, individuals supporting this as well as I really love that the Delta museum is right there. It looks like there's some really interesting collaboration that might be happening. Can you tell us a little bit about how the concept has been embraced, locally, and what are some of the ideas to sort of bring the green space back?

Hannah (13m 47s): I love hearing how universal that feeling is that there's the sixties era of building big infrastructure, freeways and airports and dams and it's a story across the nation that people can relate to. Like, we built this for progress, but there were costs and now this new generation of designers and people like me, writers and historians are sort of like, how do we balance this infrastructure that we now depend on?

I mean, we need the airport. We depend on the airport, but how can we try to balance through the power of design and community design? How do we start to make these places livable again and friendlier to the people who already live there? So, one way that we've been doing that with finding a Flint is just, I do a lot of stakeholder and community engagement, getting people who work at the airport or work at Delta, elected officials, business owners, corporate partners, all together to get out and discover the Flint river. And it's sort of like, you were just saying Jennifer, that like everybody, has a sense of discovery in nature, and everybody has this personal connection to water and we just are trying to spark that excitement.

At every level, including, folks who've worked at the airport for, their whole career who don't know about the Flint River, take them 90 minutes south of the airport, where they can go kayaking, where they can see a bald Eagle or a river Otter, and think all this started under the airport. They start to make these connections. And you can't unsee that once you've experienced that discovery and that joy. So I try to focus on making fun opportunities for access for people all up and down the upper watershed. And from that experience, we've been able to look at the big maps and identify green spaces and wetlands and opportunities to build trails and parks where there's currently just industrial land or flood plain.

Little pockets of green space that can't be developed because the river is flooding there constantly. So we found several opportunities on the north and south side of the airport and we're working with, for example, the city of college park is looking to build a nature preserve right at the source of the river on land that's currently owned by Marta.

It's right at the intersection of the railroads where the watersheds meet. So it's a seven acre park and the city of college park is looking to buy that land and develop it as the first nature preserve in the City of College Park. And I should say the Atlanta airport is surrounded by pockets of green, by forested areas, by wild spaces, none of these are publicly accessible. There are no public parks on the edge of the world's busiest airport. There's no trail. There's not even a spot where you can pull over and watch airplanes if you wanted to. And my children want to, it's a true attraction of this area. The airplanes, and there's other airports all around the world that have managed to do this, to build safe, secure green spaces along the runways, or, parks and, from San Francisco, to there's a great one in Washington, DC to other international airports in Asia and in Europe.

So it's not like this has never been done. It just doesn't exist in Atlanta because there hasn't been an advocacy group saying that it would add value or saying that it matters, it's worth investing in. So that's kind of part of what Finding the Flint has done is find the common desires of all these different stakeholders, whether it's Delta employees who want a slightly greener campus to spend their days on, or airport area residents who understand that more trees helps buffer sound and the noise pollution from the airport or elected officials who just want to create trails that connect neighborhoods that are currently off by freeways.

So I'm always listening to all these different stakeholders, to what matters to them because not everybody feels comfortable on a Creek side trail. Not everybody cares about fish and turtles, but everybody, everybody depends on clean water and they can see this river as a rallying point. As this thing, we all agree, is worth preserving and worth protecting and, actually could bring a lot of benefit to the people who live and work here.

Monica (17m 47s): Have you guys ever, or had the Atlanta airport ever thought of somehow, I mean, I don't know how you would daylight it through the airport, but doing something that points to it where it might be like, whether that's an art installation, they have a phenomenal art program. Jennifer and I, when we go through the airport, if we ever meet each other in there, that incredible flight path with, name of your book, but the piece, between B and C or A and B, it is phenomenal. I mean, we've talked about it on here before. And so to do something that spoke instead of the sky, the river would be an interesting thing. Has that airport talked about that at all?

Hannah (18m 27s): I love that installation. And I go out of my way to see it. It's just experience and it's, so it's a peaceful, you're in the bowels of this machine, the airport, and it's such a nice escape. So it's funny you say that I got an email last week from somebody at the Atlanta airport Art Department or office, and actually working on an exhibit this year about psychogeography, it's a group show and they invited me to contribute something to it. I have a call about that this week, so stay tuned.

Monica (18m 54s): That’s amazing. Okay, good. Yeah, that's really cool. And it's not just me as an artist along the way with finding the Flint. I've been talking with different designers, photographers, musicians, filmmakers, art makers, and trying to find and create seed and cultivate opportunities for different artists to respond to this really unique condition in the Atlanta area. So just recently there was an amazing photo show in Haynesville by Virginia Capelin, I'll send you a link to include, but she did a lot of photography over the last several years of the Flint River headwaters. So I do think art is a great way to tell the story and maybe one of the most important ways to get regular people to feel that sense of excitement and discovery, and maybe urgency around the condition of the river.

The airport, you know, daylighting the Flint River through the airport is, I haven't found an opportunity for that to happen. The best thing we have is this spot right next to the Delta headquarters on the north side of the airport, next to the Delta flight museum, the river's already daylighted. And there's a two, two and a half acre spot right there that we would like to see turned into a public park. That would be not only great for experiencing the headwaters, but also watching our planes. And it would be connected to the Delta flight museum. So we've worked with the airport team and the Delta team. And a lot of the questions there are about security because it's right on the edge of the airport.

Jennifer (20m 20s): That makes sense. One thing, Monica and I, we all know what daylighting is, but can you also share with our audience what daylighting is.

Hannah (20m 25s): Thank you. Yes, it's the most, creeks and rivers flow freely. but once they're put into a pipe or put into a culvert or put under a parking lot or underneath the road, that's the opposite of daylighting. I don't know what you call that it's covered or channelized. So it's not uncommon in urban areas for there to be creeks and drainages that are underground and pipes, and nobody knows they exist, but there's a number of examples around the country. And I look to them often, like in Greenville, South Carolina, or in Lexington, Kentucky, where a Creek that's been underneath the roads and the pavement, they tear out that surface and restore the edges of the Creek so that it sends a more natural condition and that's called daylighting. So it's literally just returning the Creek to the, you can see it and you can access and it's actually getting light. That's important because, a creek that is daylit that is a living creek. That's where critters can live and wherever there's water there's life. And it's important for us to be able to see and hear water we're just drawn to it. Our bodies are made of water and gravity is acting on water all the time and it's acting on our bodies. So there's a few spots north of the airport where the Flint headwaters are underneath the pavement, underneath my parking lot in Haynesville. We'd love to see those areas day lit and accessible again. Within the airport though, the question is more like raising awareness through arts, through signage. Also if there's a public park right on the edge of the airport, then that's a way for people to get out and see the river. Another big opportunity is, the airport is 5,600 acres. A lot of that is runways and concrete but in between there's all these pockets of surfaces where water can infiltrate. So American rivers has worked closely with the airport sustainability offices for years to develop green infrastructure, opportunities and plans on the airport, so that as it rains, the river isn't flooding quite as dramatically with runoff. And there's more opportunity for that storm water to soak into the grounds of the airport or go into detention or, just green infrastructure could solve some of the flooding and pollution issues downstream. If, and if the airport is implementing it, it becomes a model for surrounding industrial properties that you're part of surrounded by warehouses and logistics, lots of impervious surfaces.

Monica (22m 48s): Right. No, I love the whole daylighting concept. Where do you find things are going quickly? Like, it sounds like maybe the two acre park, next to the Delta museum has potential. And then you were saying the seven acre that college park will potentially buy. Does the conservation fund act as a bridge for that, to help purchase that land? Or is they're a nonprofit that's doing it, or is it just city funds? How does the purchase work?

Hannah: Well, they're all unique and different. The conservation fund has played that role and those folks are real estate experts. So they're at the table helping the cities figure out what is the best package of funding or how do we negotiate? It's mostly, they can play that role, but they haven't because often, the land is already owned by the city of Atlanta. In the case of the spot right next to the Delta airport. So nobody has to buy it. There is an example of south of the airport. There's 11 acres that the conservation fund has already bought and protected on behalf of Clayton county.

These are wetlands that were owned by an industrial developer who of course couldn't touch them because of the river running through it. But now that it's 11 acres protected for the Clayton county water authority is the ultimate owner. And you're exactly right. The conservation fund has the capital to go in, negotiate a good deal, buy the land and hold it until the city or county or whatever government agency is ready to transfer it to their property. So we’re actively looking for those kinds of opportunities to snag green space and protect it when we can. 

Monica (24m 16s): And one of the other things that I had no idea about that you're also working on, which also I think the conservation fund and Ryan might be involved with is this lake Charlotte project. Tell us a little bit about that. That's another area that had been, a private piece of land that at one point had been accessible, but got a chain link fence around it because it was part of waste management. But tell us a little bit about that. That's also on the south side, and where that project is cause that's really interesting as well.

Hannah (24m 53s): Right. The work on finding the Flint. Honestly, some of it translates to other waterways in Atlanta and beyond Atlanta because there's so many urban creeks and streams that have a similar story of  being forgotten and degraded over time as the city grew. And the south river in Atlanta is a very similar story. It's actually kind of unique that there are two rivers that begin in Atlanta, but the south river and the Flint are those two, so I had been working with Ryan Carvel several years ago on a project to try to understand and restore parts of the South River through Southeast Atlanta and DeKalb county and I kept coming across on the map, this thing called lake Charlotte nature preserve, which is like a 200 acre forest.

And I honestly, I tried to go visit. I was like, I've never been to this park. This looks cool. I want to see the lake. But it doesn't take long to figure out it was, fenced off. It was owned by the landfill company, which the landfill was right next door. And it's got a long and fascinating history. I was just like, what. I was obsessed. What happened? Where's the lake. What happened to the lake? How did a landfill company end up owning a public nature preserve? Because it didn't take long for me to figure out that the city of Atlanta had owned a nature preserve. There was a public park there. Very briefly and the city kind of gets the idea, but I was like this at a scandal that the city of nature preserve, and now it's owned by a landfill company. I got to understand this. So 

Monica (26m 8s): How'd they get away with selling it. Right. That's what, I had a lot of questions. And also who's Charlotte, where's the lake. What is– I think that finding the Flint kind of trained my brain to ask these questions and also just being a writer, I know a good story when I come in across it. So I started researching that and I'm actually working on a book right now. I've got a book manuscript that is about lost waters and mostly lost waters of the south. So I did a lot of research to try to understand what happened to Lake Charlotte and the happy ending of the story. I'm not spoiling the story by telling you is that the Conservation Fund acquired the property back from the landfill operator. And, it's now a city of Atlanta park and you can go to it. And you can see there's no longer a lake, it was drained, but you can see the Creek that runs through there. And Charlotte was like the granddaughter of the original property owner. So, that's just one of those many, many stories around Atlanta where I just want to peel back the layers of history and development to see like, whose idea was this? What happened? 

Jennifer (27m 10s): Exactly. Exactly. How did this happen? 

Monica (27m 13s): Right, how did it change hands and who was involved, yeah exactly. I think the green city infrastructure is so important. And have you guys been working with any, you were saying a little bit of the city officials, are you personally, besides writing it almost seems like you've become a bit of an activist for the rivers, right? For the waterways, you're sort of representing them informally. Tell us a little bit about how that works for the Lake Charlotte, was that something that you spearheaded with the conservation fund and Ryan to get that opened, or was that on the docket with the city? Like how did that come about?

Hannah (27m 50s): I learned about it at a time when the city was looking at that property as an opportunity. And part of the story is that there's this bucket of money called the city of Atlanta tree recompense funds. So that, I’m just going to give you, the rough outline is that when the city developers come in to build and they cut down trees, they have to pay into this fund. And the city uses that money to purchase forested land, to protect forested land. So the city had over the last several years, developed this fund and they were actively looking for forests to protect and preserve inside the city limits, where the city of trees and, it's great to plant trees.

It's even more important where you can to protect the land. Again, it's more than just trees. It's about protecting water quality and everybody appreciates having a green forested public space. So the city had gathered a group, including the Conservation Fund and Trees Atlanta to start looking for properties that potentially could restore some forests back to the city and back to public access. And this was on their list, Lake Charlotte was on their list. So that was a long process. I can't claim any credit for pushing that along. I honestly was just on the side asking Brian Gravel and Stacy Funderburk at the Conservation Fund, can I get in there? Can I see what's back and 

Jennifer (29m 8s): Stacy’s such a great guy. 

Hannah (29m 9s): Yes. I've learned a lot from him. And, he's really taught me that, you know, you can have a lot of great ideas about the future, about how studies should be, and what lands should be protected, but you have got to control the land or these ideas are just, pie in the sky until you can say, we have seven acres and we're going to make it sustainable and accessible and equitable. Like, we all agree that those are the goals, but it really starts with the land. And I think those of us who enjoy parks often have no concept that this could have been a farmer or this could have been a subdivision or this could have been a runway, but somebody somewhere invested in protecting it for me to enjoy. And my kids. 

Monica (29m 47s): That’s a great point. We do sort of take that access for granted. I know Jennifer so much is always advocating for people to get out. And I think even that sometimes people don't have access. And I know, Atlanta and probably cities across the country, are really thinking about how you can have green space within a certain minutes from your home. Like everybody should have that access. And that's just another concept that I think people don't think about if we do have access, we take it for granted and really thinking, how do we make it equitable? And especially the south side of Atlanta has historically been lower income. And so that's something that probably, the airport obviously has a ton of money and they've the aerotropolis district, which is super cool, like has brought together all of these individuals. So I love to see Fayetteville and College Park, which are these towns around the airport, really stepping in to champion all of that.

Tell us as we're getting towards the end of our time here about the new book. That's really exciting. So, is that the final, title, Lost Waters of the South? Or where did you go with it? Is it just Georgia or is it all the region?

Hannah (30m 55s): Thanks for asking. So it's sort of all about access. I started writing this when my kids were learning to swim and at the time they were like four and six years old and I was trying to figure out where they could access water on a regular basis because we could do lessons here. But they weren't really learning without practice, without access. And I think this is a question most parents have at some point are like, yep, we got to join a pool or we get it. We got to spend more time here or there, or we need to join the Y or something. And that's where it started. But then, you know how my brain is at this point, I realized there used to be public pools in East Point where I live. And there was a black pool and a white pool and they both really were shut down in that early eighties, really, because, and this is a common story across the country. The city really stopped investing in them and funding and maintenance on these pools after they were desegregated. So I started writing about our adventures of trying to find a pool and swimming in different pools and lakes and creeks all over the south.

And it's very much connected to finding the Flint. This is. Once you realize that you don't have a pool and the creeks around you are polluted and the lakes are private. And the access to water Is this really scarce resource that's at this point, your access is determined by class and geography and where we're at the south side of Atlanta, we really don't have access. So the book, the tentative title is the Bottomland Diaries because I'm like snooping around all these like flooded areas and rivers. But honestly, I assume that whatever editor ends up buying the book is going to change that name. But it's a year of searching for water in the south and it does go all over Atlanta. 

We went to every public pool in Atlanta, just about, and lots in the suburbs, but then also lots of creeks and rivers around Georgia and around the Southeast in Alabama and Tennessee. So I write kind of a memoir and investigative blend, right in urban history. So there's a lot about me and as a mom, trying to figure out what kind of kids I'm raising and like trying to grapple with– there's really entrenched segregation and public spaces across the south. And particularly in swimming pools,which your sending– and swimming holes, which are such intimate spaces. So I learned a lot about the history of public pools and I love how that kind of balances with like, we built pools because we were losing access to natural swimming holes, and then we shut down pools and built private pools and we really are like we're in trouble when it comes to water and who can get to it in the south. You really have to, it's privileged that you exercise when you get yourself in the water.

Monica (33m 28s): Yeah no, that sounds wonderful and again, living in Grant Park, that pool, that Grant Park pool, when we were there, I want to say was refurbished, and then people had access, but then it wasn't fully funded or maintained. And so there were a lot of challenges around what it was like when you did go. I'm blanking on the authors, the book, but I feel like the past year or so, there was a book that came out that really pointed out that those pools were drained and it wasn't that they were the black pools were drained or the white pools were drained. Like all pools were drained because of segregation. Like they kind of say, We're not going to let anybody come in and then it's, spited, everybody, and it's just sort of a, I'll use the word disgusting and sad history, but I think it's so important to know it. You need to understand that history.

I'm fascinated again, as somebody who didn't grow up here to hear the stories about what people did. 

Hannah (34m 21s): And how it’s still kind of hurting us now. That book I think you’re talking about it's called the Sum of Us by Heather McGhee

Monica (34m 29s): She’s amazing.

Hannah (34m 30s) She's really been focused on how race sort of hurts us all. It's not just one directional. It really actually hurts us all as a community. And it certainly has stunted the growth of Atlanta. When you look at public transportation or public spaces, public pools, public schools, it persists in a lot of ways that hurt all of us. Not just. the disadvantaged or marginalized communities, but everybody is affected by it. That's kind of one of the major things I discovered through the search for a place to swim. That's an awesome book, but it has definitely, I'm glad that people are thinking about swimming, but it's not just about swimming. I think swimming is a fun lens into thinking about public space. 

Monica (35m 15s): Well, I think she dovetailed into the ability to swim. And drownings. And so as a mom, you're very concerned about getting your kids to learn how to swim, but you don't recognize that that's a really privileged position to be in, to be able to have access, and then be able to pay for lessons. And so that's another area of inequality, that leads to, some major safety issues.

Hannah (35m 40s): That's right. And I think with, just to bring it back to finding the Flint, you're not going to be swimming in the Flint headwaters in the airport area. Right. But people, I'm one of these people who lives in the airport area. And if I want to go get in a river, I have to go 90 minutes, two hours, north or south of the city to get far away from the city. That wasn't the case 50 years ago, you could swim in creeks in Atlanta. And I actually have talked a lot of people who still do, I don't recommend it, but I do think in the future, and this is something that you'll see in New York there already, there's several groups in New York are working on restoring swimming to the east river. Like that's the goals like you should be able to swim in urban water. Yeah. They should be clean enough and accessible enough, that's the goal.

So it sounds ambitious for finding the Flint, but that's the goal is these are our waters. We have access to them. Why are polluters allowed to take that away from us? And those polluters are often our own government who are spilling sewage into them.

Monica (36m 39s): Yeah, yeah. They've gotten away with it for so long. And I always think that, having been in Boulder recently, like the Boulder Creek to me is a fascinating model. And I don't know the history quite as much, but when we went, people are all along in the summer, along the Creek and there's tons of access points. There's a whole bike path along it, and you can basically traverse the whole city. And then there's just different access points and people will even tube down it and such. But why can't we do that in other cities, I guess would be the question. 

Jennifer (37m 10s): It all leads back to education, right? So the the more we know, the more we want to do the work that Hannah's doing is like, why aren't we able to do that? Why can't we? And then we kind of put that stake in the ground, in our own cities, wherever we might be and say, we need to come together and clean and understand what happened here and why can't we be better for the future for future generations, like children, grandchildren, and et cetera.

Monica (37m 30s): Yeah. I think how do we let people know that as a citizen, rethinking that community thought that we're all citizens and we, in order to flourish, we all have to flourish together, and I think people have forgotten that. And I think the work you're doing is bringing that back to mind. And so I thank you for that. It's been really interesting to learn and I can't wait for your next book.

Hannah (37m 53s): Thank you. It’s really been my pleasure and privilege to do this work, to be the one saying, hey, we can raise our expectations in this. This is our water too. And we can write a different story for our kids and grandkids who look back and be like, hey, remember when this was polluted and you couldn't walk in it.

Jennifer (38m 13s): Exactly. Exactly. 

Hannah (38m 11s): It gives me something to wake up and look forward to. 

Monica (38m 14s): Well thank you Hannah, appreciate all your time and can’t wait to share this with our audience.

Hannah (38m 20s): Thanks for having me. 

Monica (38m 23s): So our conversation with Hannah was so fascinating to me because we're really covering territory that I don't think we’ve delved into yet on the podcast. 

Jennifer (38m 30s): Absolutely, I mean, this whole notion about huge swaths of land, including lakes and rivers that cities either A, pave over and build on top of, or B, completely cut off access to. It was really not something that I personally have come across or really even fully considered before.

Monica (38m 47s): And it makes the problem really tricky, right. Because we can't solve you know, something that you can't see or that you have no way of knowing about. So we're lucky to have people like Hannah, who take on the role of really like urban historian, bringing things to light and organizations like the conservation fund who helped bridge the gap between nature, access, equity, and private land owners.

Jennifer (39m 9s): Exactly. So in addition to the Flint, which was our main topic today, the lake Charlotte story is a really fascinating example of this, where a huge tract of land changes, private ownership multiple times, and ends up behind a padlock gate for years before it's rediscovered and returned to public use. There's this link in the show notes for anyone who is interested in getting the full history and the full story that I really highly recommend, it’s really fascinating. 

Monica (39m 29s): Yeah, it’s definitely encouraging to see movements from groups like Finding the Flint who were making real strides to daylight, these last hidden rivers and streams, and then create public access points so they don't fall back into oblivion.

Jennifer (39m 46s): Right. And it seems like there's a lot of invention and a lot of participation from the airport and from the city, which is so encouraging.

Monica (39m 53s): Yeah. And then she also said Delta is getting involved with their Delta museum right near the airport. So the next time you're driving down a major industrial road and see a big padlocked gate or a wire fence, do a little digging and see what you can find. Legally of course, Hannah has had not one, but two major discoveries from just doing that. 

Jennifer (40m 12s): And support groups like Finding Flint. 

Monica (40m 12s): All right, Jennifer, until next time. 

Jennifer (40m 14s): Bye Monica.