Creating Outdoor Citizens with Appalachian Mountain Club’s John Judge

Monica (0s): Hi, Jennifer. 

Jennifer (1s): Hey Monica. 

Monica (3s): Tell us about our guest today, Jennifer.

Jennifer (6s): Okay. So today we're speaking with a good friend of mine. John Judge, he's the CEO of the Appalachian Mountain Club, which is the oldest conservation organization in the US focused mainly on the Northeastern part of the United States. Think Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, you get the idea.

The mission of the Appalachian Club is to foster protection, enjoyment and understanding of the outdoors as they achieve this mission in a myriad of ways. First off each part of the AMC does is to educate the public about how to engage with nature and to give the communities the tools they need to develop a relationship with nature, but they're also very involved in climate research and advocacy work.

John's background is in the nonprofit and government world. Before coming to AMC, he was the executive director for Habitat for Humanity and the greater Boston area and served as a Chief of City Planning and Economic Development office for the city of Springfield in Massachusetts.

Monica (54s): So impressive. John is such a kind and fascinating person with such a solid understanding and perspective of how we all should be encouraging people to develop their own personal relationships with nature. And in today's interview, we really talked to him about the important work that the mountain club is doing, how we can encourage community members to contribute to this important research and how they're giving people the tools they need to get outside.

Jennifer (1m 18s): So let's get to our interview with John Judge.

Monica (1m 28s): John, it’s so nice to meet you.

John (1m 30s): Same here, Monica. Thanks for having me on.

Monica (1m 32s): Yeah, we're excited. We had a few weeks that we were, doing a big leadership conference and so we're excited to be back in the studio as I use with air quotes. So tell us a little bit about yourself, and about your background and about the Appalachian Mountain Club cause we're super excited. as you know, we love the outdoors.

John (1m 51s): Sure. Want to start out by thanking my friend, Jennifer Walsh, who I met years ago and I was on a business trip in New York city and sat next to her at dinner and we got chatting and it was, easily, it was 10 years ago. It might've been 12. 

Jennifer (2m 11s): I think you're, I think it probably exactly 10 years ago, we're sitting next to each other and you just started talking about your love of the outdoors and we've been friends ever since, and I love that kismet and that synchronicity of like the world, especially when your concerns nature when people show up for nature, nature shows up for you. So I thought that we've been connected all along. I've loved watching your path and how you've really taken a stance in this always in your work, but also just to listen to you and watch your work really evolve in the past few years. So I'm really thankful that you're part of this conversation today. So thank you for joining us.

John (2m 44s): Sure.

Monica (2m 45s): And big win, to have Jennifer as a dinner companion, nothing better.

Jennifer (2m 52s): Gee Monica, thanks. I appreciate that. I'll pay you later.

Monica (2m 54s): Give us a lowdown. How did you get here? What is the club?What's going on? What's your journey?

John (3m 1s): I've been CEO now. It will be 10 years in January of AMC. And so AMC, Appalachian Mountain Club is America's oldest conservation organization, and we're founded in 1876. We were one of the founders of the Appalachian trail. So many people confuse us with the Appalachian trail. We're a trail maintainer. So we've maintained all 400 miles of the 2,300 mile trail. So we're the largest maintainer there. We have a very robust trail building program around the region where we maintain about 2000 miles of trails.

Yeah. And have, over a hundred facilities, everything from back country campsites to front country lodges, we finished an eight and a half million dollar facility up in the main woods. A couple years ago called Metta whistle, lodge in eco lodge and cabins, and are working on acquisition of another 26,000 acres up in the main woods will bring us to over a hundred thousand acres of conserved land.

And I like to use the main analogy. The white mountain analogy. And I'll talk for a second about the Harriman State Park analogy. But what we do is we don't just put a fence up around land to protect it. We think about the recreationness and then bringing recreation as into, and this is why, love your podcast bringing recreationists into the, wonders of the outdoors, then wherever they are, and then get them to the table that we call conservation stewardship, becoming the next generation of outdoor citizens, becoming conservation stewards, creating some agency for, whether it be young or old in terms of the stewardship of the outdoors in the natural world.

So, we've been very fortunate. We come to the table usually as a partner. So in the White Mountain National Forest, we help establish the White Mountain National forest in New Hampshire back in 1918 and, had the longest running National partnership with the US forest service up there where we, have eight high mountain huts they're called and they're iconic.

If you've ever done any hiking in the white mountains, you've either stayed at or gone past one of the eight huts that we have. And they host about 45,000 folks a year. And so people were hiking up 4,000, 5,000 feet and staying overnight in bunk rooms. And our staff make them homemade food for dinner, and they put on a little bit of a program and the next morning they wake up and we feed them breakfast and they're on their way.

So many folks know AMC through that. And then we've been trying to, and Jennifer alluded to a little bit in terms of my work, I've been trying to connect folks in urban areas with the outdoors and hence the push for Harriman State Park, 46,000 acres, about 30 miles from Manhattan. Our first lodge opened about five years ago called Corman Herrmann. And it's so wonderful to walk in there and see, people from every background and belief and income come in and use this beautiful facility. So we're working now on our second facility there on Sebago lake, which is a very big lake and Harriman, which will be double the size of the first.

Yeah. So it's akin to the partnership that we have in the White Mountain National forest, where we have a partnership with the Palisades interstate park commission and Joshua Laird who's the executive director there. He and his team just do a fantastic job, but it's a win-win right.

We've got this, public space, this beautiful resource and asset that the public that you and I, and all of us own that New York and New Jersey has said, Hey, we want to partner with AMC and have AMC raise private funds. And that's what we do. We go out and we, do the fundraising and then own and manage these facilities under 30 year plus leases on public land.

Yeah. On public land. Right. it's a win-win right. We're protecting public land. We're helping enact it wisely, enact it. one of the things you see when you're hiking, bear mountain in New York 

Jennifer (7m 17s): One of my favorite places, by the way, one of my favorite spots. Yes, I grew up there.

John (7m 21s): And what would you say just in terms of the last time you hiked, how many people do you think are prepared. And how many people do you think just showed up? Having no idea of the rigor of it?

Jennifer (7m 33s): That's a great question. The most, I see people just go, but they're definitely not prepared or they're definitely not prepared for it. I see that a lot across my hikes when people just kind of go, but there don't even have water with them and there's no preparation whatsoever because they just think, oh, I'll just do a little walk, but they don't really realize what Bear Mountain has or even just any hikes around New York state at all.

John (7m 53s): Yeah. Hit the nail on the head. We've seen so many folks come out and they're lucky if they have, a CVS or Walgreens bag with maybe a granola bar and a bottle of water, if you're lucky and quite a few people we're seeing coming up there with either the wrong shoes they're wearing flip-flops or they're getting a late start, Monica, they're getting out at 4 o’clock in the afternoon. Take a hike and not realize that gee, you're going to get up there at dark. And you probably need to rethink this. So we are lucky at AMC where we put on about 8,000 programs a year, including with this army of volunteers. That helps us put those on 16,000 volunteers. And then we published books, maps, and guides too.

So we have about 80 books out there now everything from, back country skiing to trail building. We're trying to give people, education is the bridge between the recreationists and the conservation person. We're trying to give them the preparedness that they need to really have this journey and the outdoors.

So that kind of sums it up. So, outdoor recreation, active conservation, applied conservation, like trail building conservation research. We have the country's oldest climate change data. We've been keeping that since the early 1930s. We do a lot in terms of citizen science or community science.

We're getting people in to look at phenology and saying, okay, what are the changes that are happening in terms of the growth cycle? So through what's called the eye naturalist program. And then another one that we just started thanks to our director of conservation research. Dr. Sarah Nelson is called the dragonfly mercury project where people are actually trained to go out and scoop up some dragonfly eggs and get those measured for mercury poisoning. And it's in a hundred national parks now. It's cool. Yeah. 

Monica (9m 54s): So that's interesting. I didn't even know, you hear about ins–, obviously we're having a huge biodiversity die off right now, but I didn't know dragonflies, that's interesting. Where are they picking the mercury up from?

John (10m 4s): Well, that's one of the cool things. There's 7,000 varieties of dragonflies, which I didn't know. No idea. Yeah. And dragon dragonflies can spend up to years in a certain pond or water way and that's why they're a good indicator for how much mercury poisoning is in that area.

Jennifer (10m 24s): Wow. That's fascinating. 

John (10m 25s): Yeah. Versus some other insects that are a little bit more mobile and don't have a home base. Yeah. And when you're picking up dragonfly eggs, they lay thousands of eggs. So it's not like they're missing when you take a few of them. 

Monica (10m 39s): You can take a few of them and put them up. Yeah, exactly. But that's interesting, like a leading indicator that's really interesting , I'm always sort of fascinated with citizen science. And I have two teen boys. And so I'm actually on your website now looking at like, it looks like there's maybe a mountaineering school and some teen staff that they can go and do 5, 10, 12 days out and about are those pretty big don't want to call them a camp, but like those sort of summer explorations or is that a big part of the business or is that just one of the many education tools.

John (11m 8s): Yeah, it's one of the many, we have a program called educators outdoors. That's our biggest, and that's where we train teachers and youth workers over the course of four or five days, we charge $120 for them to go through this training that costs us well over a thousand bucks

Monica (11m 27s): I was going to say, that’s so affordable.

John (11m 29s): So school systems, boys and girls club, the girl Scouts, you name it, they'll send their folks to us, we'll train them. And then they get to use the outdoors as part of their classroom, part of their program every day, versus them just sending their kids to us for a week. And then once they go through that educators outdoors program, they have unlimited free use of our gear.

And tends to be the great equalizer. So Jennifer, we've got a gear shed at Heriman. We've got a huge gear shed in Boston. We've got about 11 gear sheds that are scattered around the region. So. it's the great equalizer where kids don't have to go out and buy $500 worth of hiking and outdoor stuff. They can get backpacks, hiking, boots, shoes, tents, all that from us.

Jennifer (12m 16s): I think I've been to your, the shed at Herriman. I think I've been there like maybe three or four years ago, possibly. It's a pretty big space, isn't it? And are there canoes there as well?

John (12m 26s): Well, we do have canoes. I don't know if it's, yeah. as you drive into the camp, you can't miss it. big brown forest park service kind of building, and it has the gear shed name on it, but then probably a hundred yards from there is we're all of our boats are, so canoes and kayaks are down there.

Jennifer (12m 48s): I think I've been there actually on a, on a, trip. So yeah, it's pretty beautiful. It's pretty great.

Monica (12m 53s): And are you mostly servicing kids sort of in the Northeast, there are families and people in the Northeast, or do you have like say, I'm in Atlanta? If our family took a trip to the Northeast, it's something that we could access as well. Right?

John (13m 07s): Sure, we were up in Maine over the summer and there was a family from Chicago there and the Mom had just found out. On the internet and said we wanted to do something rustic in the United States. And because of COVID, we wanted to keep it in the U S and do something with adventure, but yeah, you could, come up and stay with us.

There are a number of teen programs that your sons could participate in. I think the teen trails program is part of our teen adventure. So they could come up and stay with us for a week or two, and then have a chance to work on some trails in the area, which I think is so fulfilling, for them to come back and say, Hey mom, we help build XYZ trail that you know, is going to be there for a hundred years.

And then, 10,000 people in the summer, walk up there in a week. So it's, fulfilling. And it it gives a lot of young people. the [00:14:00] right context for, Hey, these things just don't happen.

Monica (14m 4s): Yeah. somebody has to clear the brush and take care of it. So you've been there 10 years now, have you always been in sort of the nature outdoor education space or how did you come to the Appalachian mountain club?

John (16m 7s): My background, my dad was a Marine and went to Rhode Island school of design you know, grew up with a lot of money and in a tenement house and got to go to Rhode Island school of design, thanks to the GI Bill. And so when he passed, away, he was Massachusetts longest serving registered landscape architect. So he really, pushed the outdoors. He and mother would get us out doors whenever they could. I think, just to get them up, get us out of there hair. Yeah. And then I went on to be involved in scouting. So I'm an Eagle scout and have done a lot of hiking, so the outdoors has always been a big part of my life, but I think for my 30 years in terms of nonprofit for profit government work has always been about equity and working with the lowest income communities.

I was born in, the Dorchester neighborhood in Boston and have lived in the city of Boston most of my life. And thinking about the untapped communities that, so I've worked in affordable housing and job creation, community development. And so nature is part of each and every one of our DNA and thinking about it as a foundational piece, as we think about the way we plan cities, we certainly put too much emphasis on cars. You know, you both started out this podcast by talking about how bad traffic is. And so how do we get around that and how do we bring the scale of a city to a nature scale and really reorientate ourselves. So to me, in building affordable housing, I worked for habitat for humanity for seven years. 

My early push was in creating green space and this again had to do with my dad and coming out and doing the free landscape plans for us at these habitat houses, but also making sure that they were sustainable. So, the Boston habitat was one of the first that was doing, just in time, water heating and other, sustainable materials and recycled materials. So thinking about how we're creating this virtuous circle, that just doesn't take from nature, but it is restorative.

Monica (18m 28s): You're speaking our language, John, I love it. It's interesting when you talk about equity and access, I was driving in Atlanta and the REI had a billboard on it and I can't think exactly what it was saying, but it was basically saying that it was one line about, nature's for everybody, nature doesn't discriminate. And I think that one of the things that we hear having worked with Children and Nature Network, which I'm sure you're familiar with and just it's there. And just at Serenbe is a lot of people are scared of nature and they don't feel welcomed. And whether that is cultural or past connotation or bugs or bears or whatever this sort of thing is.

And so I really get excited when I see something like that or like what you're doing that really says everybody's welcome, and just starting from that space because we can take for granted that we go hiking or we go camping and because our family may have done it or we feel like we have had access. But not everybody has that. So to, just start there and think about how do you welcome people in, and especially kids is so important.

Jennifer (19m 30s): It must change their lives too John. Like what you see and what your daily work is when you witnessed, like what Monica just said, as you bring people to the woods for an experience that they may never have had before. So you must see such transformation, even in the smallest amount of just being there and witnessing what they witnessed, maybe they've never seen a bug of a certain type before our plant or the sunset around the trees. it must be beautiful for you and your work to see that kind of experience.

John (18m 9s): It really is. When you go to a place like Harriman, we just took over the management of the visitor centers at Harriman state park. So the two visitor centers there, four and a half million people a year go through there, and now we're going to see CAMC on a regular basis, but seeing Hasidic Jews come out with, Latinos every race, creed, and color and income, and it's what America should be in terms of us all coming out and enjoying something on level playing ground. I, I do think one of the big issues is folks not necessarily knowing that it's for them and that has been presented to me in a couple ways on a pretty regular basis. But one of the things we hear from some families are, we take them for program at a park or a snowshoe, and they say, can we come back here on our own? And, to me, that breaks my heart to think, okay, you need somebody– it's not about, I prepared this thing where that is important. Monica, you know, want to make sure that everyone's prepared and has the right gear and preparation and so on, but it's more of a, hey, is this place open for me? And my family and friends, so continuing to emphasize that, I like the REI sign, but a lot of the groundwork hasn’t been done.

[00:19:34] Monica: No. And I think that there is, I'll speak for myself, thinking like I'm I'm I popped up the Herrmann. It's gorgeous. So I encourage everybody to go to the website and outdoors.org is, my privilege of like, just being comfortable that like, oh yeah, I could go there. that I could think that. That is a privilege and I'm very lucky that I can think that it's. So how do we give people that opportunity that these beautiful spaces are yours? That's right. I mean, right. It's such a simple idea, but that is sort of heartbreaking to think that people don't think that they can't go or come back on their own. and that goes back to , everybody's welcome, but how do you provide access? And Jennifer and I talk about that a lot, if you don't know that you can wander even like New York city park, right? There's so many nooks and crannies and beautiful spaces, but if you have never been “invited”. Even though the park is totally open. 

Jennifer (22m 20s): Yeah. I think it's how we're raised, or how we're exposed because I was born in the Bronx and living in the Bronx. If I didn't have my parents that wanted to take me to the Botanical Gardens or to Central Park or to the Bronx Zoo and spend time in these places to know the land a little bit better at the Bronx and New York City, I would have never have went if it weren't for, and also classes like when I went to school, we had class trips to these places as well.

So, I'm not sure if John, if you're seeing a lot more interest in the past few years of these kind of taking trips to local parks or taking trips to zoos that you're witnessing, or has COVID raise that awareness as well. Maybe that’s a double question I'm asking you, two answers, but,

John (23m 6s): Yeah, it's an interesting question because we've seen an uptick in interest in terms of individuals and families wanting to get outdoors, but there's been an incredible amount of pressure on schools given the number of days that kids missed, or the at home piece to pull back from these, what Jennifer, you were talking about, the school trips. And that concerns me. One of the things we're trying to do, we did this for my daughter's nursery school is they actually paid to have one of our instructors come there for a day and just work with the teachers in terms of how to really amplify nature in and around the school's campus.

And for many schools, that means. a strip of land with three trees in a big rock on it, if they're lucky and in New York city, I know a lot of schools just have, the parking, the black top and thinking about how do you get to union? How do you get to central and really engage folks in, the parks that they may have and help them create that inculcate that sense of ownership.

Because it's unfortunate, it's almost like our for a lot of folks our music, a lot of schools that it's taking a back seat and. While everyone's concerned about climate change and it's the existential threat and extreme weather is showing us, more that than ever before. I do think it gives us really wonderful opportunity to not only try to hit home the science of climate change and incorporate that into a young person's science, geology, contemporary politics, you name it, but also to make sure that they have a relationship with nature and the outdoors, it's another way to get at the importance of it. And then hopefully have schools drive that as part of the curriculum. Because you both know it's just spending time outdoors and being immersive in nature. And I think you all know the story about forest bathing was just a marketing ploy by a Japanese guy, back in the seventies, he came up with this idea and he called it forest bathing. And it was a marketing strategy to get people to his park. And it worked cause people talk about it all the time. Now, thinking about how do we get folks to really feel like they can lean on nature all the time versus it's a one-time thing. And you know.

Jennifer (25m 40s): So glad you're saying that, John, that's exactly it. I think that relationship has to start early for us and every day, like, I think you talk about this John and Monica talks about this too. I think we all do is the fact that we can't expect to protect the land. We can't expect to have, sustainability and regenerative practices if we're not spending time outside, but we don't know what's in our own backyard in terms of a tree or a plant or whatever it might be, how are we expected to then care?

And then for there to be guardians of the land around us, we have to really take that step and that right direction to be outside. And you're doing, that, John,

Monica (26m 16s): Is there anybody doing– cause think field trips is an interesting thing. I've never really thought about again, I went to public schools in California, but we had a lot of field trips. We went to like different aquariums. And so you got to learn about different ecosystems on these little trips. Is there anybody that's doing? Cause I think of like the Warby Parker or Toms where they do one-to-one, where, you buy a pair of, I know the consumer's buying a pair glasses and then they pay for one for low-income or somebody who doesn't have shoes or glasses or I mean, isn't really doing like one-to-one field trips.

Is there any way to incentivize when for every field trip at a private school or even a public school, is there, there would be an interesting, like, to donate a field trip? Like, you can donate your New York times when you go to town. Cause I do think, I'd never thought of it. It’s such an important imprinting on you as a young kid. 

John (27m 5s): Yeah. Without a doubt, there are organizations that the National Parks foundation a few years ago for their hundredth anniversary, they did a, every kid in the park where they're paying for kids in the fourth grade to get to a park.

Monica (27m 26s): Our son was the age I think, to get in that year. And I don't, I can't remember like if we used it or not, but I was blown away by what an amazing, every fourth grader was allowed into the park for free. It was so cool. Any national park.

John (27m 45s): Yeah. But thinking about the repetition and the relationship piece of that, that's what I'm most concerned, because there are a lot of one-offs or there are organizations, well-meaning organizations that are getting out the counters and saying, okay, we've got, 20 families in the park for XYZ, and then that's the last time you see them there. So, and that's, you know, some people are just not going to come back, but I think giving folks the tools is one of the most important things.

So, as you said, Monica, that they feel like it's not a mystery, for too many people, the outdoors is a mystery and they're like, okay, I don't want to get a sprained ankle on the trail or get caught at night or tell me about the bears.

Monica (28m 25s): I noticed there's a magazine. How do people get the magazine? Can we become members or like, how does that work? how do we support the work? And I want the magazine, I'm obsessed with like real paper and books and magazines. 

John (28m 38s): Yeah. Appalachia is the name of the journal. It's like a lot of things at AMC. It's got the moniker of the oldest. It's the oldest mountaineering magazine and yeah, so it's, the old issues are just amazing, crack them open from the 18 hundreds and see what they were dealing with then and what we're dealing with now, I don't know you that well, Monica but I know you like paper, but I know Jennifer following her on Instagram and other places, Jennifer, I think you'd love it. Cause it has, poetry and great photography and really endearing stories.

But almost everybody, Monica and Jennifer, goes to the back of the magazine where they have the accident reports. And I guess it's just human nature, but it's Joe Smith was found up the trail and he had broken his leg and he was there for four hours. And it goes through how he, I'm just making this story up, but how he broke his leg, why he was on the trail by himself in the first place, what are some of the things that he probably did wrong?

So, they're almost like many Harvard business school case studies for the outdoors, like, okay. this person or these people didn't really pay attention or, weren't prepared, but I think the subscription, it comes out a couple of times a year and it's, I think it's a $15 subscription on top of your membership.

So AMC is still one of the best deals. It's a $50 membership or $75 for families for the year it helps support the work that we do from conservation research to trails. And another benefit is , a discount staying at our lodges or, buying merchandise through us, including books, maps, and guides.

You get a discount. And then on top of that membership, you subscribe to the magazine because a lot of people don't necessarily subscribe to it. Interesting thing about the back issues of the magazine is that we just created the partnership at the beginning of the year with Dartmouth college in New Hampshire which we've got wonderful following from Dartmouth college folks who have been AMC volunteers and staff, including on our hike crew, but they're carrying the digital version on Dartmouth commons, which is like, an open free platform.

So you could always go there, Monica and Jennifer, and see some of the back issues to give you a taste of what it's like.

Monica (31m 3s): Fantastic. I love all the merchandise too. Like the 4,000 footers, we have a 16 year old too, and he, and my husband and they've been doing it, but now it's the school's back in, is they have a goal of hitting every, the highest peaks, they have a whole name for it, like in every state and the one in Florida was like an overpass. Exactly. And then they've gone to like, different places in North Carolina and Alabama. But this is super fun. Like the periodic table of white mountain, 4,000 footers, it's just fun.

And those to me, like, as a marketer, like that's how you get partly people excited or, somebody who wants to just really into maps and they get into the photography, or so I love that you have all that aspects of it. And then all the guides look amazing too. Like the paddling guides, all the water.

Jennifer (31m 48s): Did a book just come out or did you just publish a book recently, or there's a new book? I feel like I just saw something recently.

John (31m 55s): Oh yeah. Thanks. About a year ago I wrote a book called the Outdoor Citizen. And the gist of it was that we all need a relationship with the outdoors and we all need to play a part in tending nature and the outdoors, but wrote it a while ago, but it, talks about all the things that you're hearing from the need to decentralize our energy system and create, these micro grids to this idea of a next ecology, which is, the next evolution of how we as humans, boost nature and boost nature system services to creating a global community around the outdoors as a way to bring people in countries together.

Monica (32m 38s): Wait, talk a bit more about that. Repeat what that is. And tell me a little bit more about that.

John (32m 42s): Which one, the last one?

Monica (32m 44s): The last one, the last one. Yeah. Micro grids. I love to talk about, but you were saying like the next evolution. Tell me what were you calling that. 

John (32m 53s): Oh next ecology? 

Monica (32m 54s): Yeah. What is that? That’s interesting. 

John (32m 57s): Basically, as you said at the start of the show, Monica, we're losing, 7,000 species a year now. There's incredible harm to biodiversity in the ecology that's happening. And, part of it is climate change. Part of it is issues with agricultural runoff and overdevelopment, right?

We're developing into areas that were once free for wildlife. So this idea of a next ecology is it brings together all of the digital and data in biology that we have to really boost nature systems. you think about, for instance, a tree lives in a wooded area and the average tree lives for at least 30 years, but in the city, it only lives six or seven years because of pollution because people were bumping into it, you name it, but thinking about ways for us to strengthen nature and the natural world, and then underpin that with sustainable finance, because everyone always asks me about how are you going to pay for this?

And then thinking about all the ways that the money that's being raised now for good things like R and D and climate there's so much money out there that bringing these two worlds together and thinking about climate resiliency, better preparing cities, adapting cities for the next climate, but making sure those nature systems are strong enough, robust enough monitored, tended to. So the next ecology is a more, a less extractive let's take from nature and a more of what's the plan to give back.

Monica (34m 43s): I love that. I love that. I've just never heard of it. It's so spot on. It's perfect. when you were first talking in the beginning and this is sort of a weird question, like, are we building new parks and forests, like, the national parks. We're very familiar at Serenbe. We put 70% of the land into conservation here and we partner with the conservation fund locally. But are we building new national parks? Like, when you put that land into conservation, like, is that a huge initiative of yours, I dunno, Bill, it just seems like a very turn of the century.

John (35m 24s): The work that we're doing in, the main woods, you know, to have AMC and we did on the second 26,000 acres, so that we own about 76,000 acres and we're adding another 26,000, but that 26,000 we partner with the conservation fund, which gave us the loan to buy that

Monica (35m 36s): Yeah, their programs are fascinating.

John (35m 38s): Yeah, they really are. But again, Larry and his team really have hit the nail on the head, on the sustainable finance piece of it, you know, how do we create this virtuous circle, where we pay the money back and then he, they, she lend it out to everybody else that needs to keep going.

But in terms of your question about more parks there are more parks being created. AMC led the reauthorization of reappropriation of the land, water conservation fund coalition, which was one of the bright spots of 2020 and summer 2020 it got passed as what was called the great American outdoors act.

And the fact that we're, non-partisan, we're walking in, Lamar Alexander's office and Elizabeth Warren’s office. And, so Republican, Democrat, Independent would sit down with us and it was a bipartisan success story. And we permanently, this kitty had been pilfered for a long time by Congress, but $900 million a year will now come to communities to buy land, create parks, to build trails, to repair or build veterans memorials, but, everything outdoor related.

So that's really some great news. So for the rest of our lives and the rest of our kids, kids and kids, you know, for generations to come, they'll have this in perpetuity, which is great because beforehand it wasn't, we're lucky at times to be getting 300, 400 million a year, and now it's $900 million a year.

So I think locally, a lot of work is happening. One of the opportunities that we have is in really reclaiming urban areas, and you were talking about streets and cities. And I'd like to take a next whack at Robert Moses' plans and think about the West Side Highway or in Boston think about Submerging Storrow drive a little bit and putting up a cycling highway on top of it and really creating the elements that we need to boost the green space, but then also, amplify the active conservation opportunities we have. And McKinsey came out with a report that said that we need to add a lot more green space in the United States. And they said to really pushed back on climate change, we need to add about a third of the continental United States in forests. So when you think about that, like, wow, it's something crazy. It's like 750 million acres that we would need to add. So, where are those forests going to be created?

So, the good work of the conservation fund and the nature Conservancy and Trust Republic lands. But I do think we need to look at urban suburban and think about, adding these lands, but also making them part of a very rich recreational active transit infrastructure. It's not just, hey, let's create a forest for the heck of that, which is always great, but how do we connect people to that forest to make sure that it's relevant for them and for generations to come, that they're going to not only go there, but they'll hopefully write a check or vote, to keep it.

Monica (39m 8s): Right, Jennifer we had Sarah Milligan Toffler on who runs Children and Nature Network the nonprofit. And I believe she was saying that, and I don't remember the numbers but, that the public schools we, the public, own that land, if you will. And they're working to sort of green schoolyards, but beyond putting, a raised bed in because she's like, if we could turn those into A, recreation for the kids instead of a blacktop and B those turned into land sinks, for carbon, but it was some incredible number of acreage from the public schools. And then could the public then have access to some of that recreation. And that would be one idea to green cities.

John (39m 53s): Yeah, that's spot on. And that's what they did in Paris. TNC worked with mayor Hidalgo in Paris, who is amazing. She's just so far out in front. She's a member of the C 40 cities initiative that Mayor Bloomberg is very involved with, but they did a school yards program where they work with the nature Conservancy to green all the school yards but at the very least what you said, Monica, which is, maybe it's a few trees, but maybe it's creating, permeable services that act as, carbon sinks that help with groundwater runoff, are adaptive and resilient for extreme weather events. So the kids go out there and they have a chance to, maybe there's a little retention pond and that's where they learn. Right. It's like a little bath.

Monica (40m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, learning lab. So, that would be again, government, we can go either way on how effective they are. Sometimes they do great things like the great American outdoors act.

And so, she's piloting a program. I want to say here in Georgia to get some examples going, because that's what a lot of people need. They want to be able to see ROI, maybe children's health or better test scores, we're so metrics-driven as a country that once you do that, whether that's for the financials or for the government, then things sometimes start to happen, you know? Cause you can point to it works. They don't like anecdotal evidence.

So what's next? Is that something you guys AMC we'll get into is more urban greening or urban parks, or is that something you're heading into from a policy or with conservation fund? What's next for you guys?

John (41m 40s): Yeah, I think on the policy side of things, having had the privilege to lead the land water conservation fund coalition we're putting effort toward making sure that those monies are being used with a very big equity, the eye lens.

So, you know, access from a policy standpoint, that's going to be very important. this idea of resilient trails, which is something we coined maybe four years ago, but the idea that if you're building a walking trail, bicycling trail, hiking trail, that you're making it resilient for extreme weather events.

And so there are nature system services around it, really becomes a little slice of nature. And so thinking about how do we work with cities and communities around that? We just finished a project at valley forge building trails down there, our trail crew went down there and did a few weeks contract.

And the area that they reconstructed got hit by that, terrible floods that hit Queens and New York. And it should have been wiped out, but it wasn't. And it was because of how it was built. So thinking about that as we move forward we're trying to do a lot of work in and around cities.

So we've got a 230 mile trail that circles around Boston called the bay circuit trail. And it goes through 37 different communities and it essentially, Monica and Jennifer, just, it stitches together trails that were already in some of those communities and creates this bay circuit trail. So thinking about the Highlands trail, the work that we're doing in and around New York and the Highlands trail the work that will continue to do in Harriman state park with the New York New Jersey trails conference, The trail work that we're trying to do close to home in Connecticut, up through Worchester into New Hampshire, used to be called the MMM trail, but now it's called the new England scenic trail.

So we renamed that and have the national parks as a partner with us on that. And then the camp that we have in the second camp that we want to build and Herrmann called the Sebago outdoor center will be doubled the size of the first one. So we're going to have to raise $7 or $8 million in private philanthropy around that.

And that's to, build cabins that's to make it  handicap accessible. We just finished the first autism accessible trail in New Hampshire. So thinking about things that we can do at Sebago that are accessible for everybody whether you're walking or in a wheelchair or have autism or other special needs, thinking about how do we, really use this as a platform to get hundreds of thousands of people outdoors. So it's an $8 million facility, but the great news is we're taking a facility that is closed, that the state doesn't have the funds to do it, but the state owns the land and partnering with the state and the Palisades park commission this is the model that we should be doing.

Jennifer (44m 46s): Sure. Yep, absolutely.

Monica (44m 48s): Yeah. The private public partnerships is really it.

Jennifer (44m 54s): This makes me very excited, John. It makes me like nerd out over like yes, more space, more opportunity to connect the dots between all the people and accessibility to all. I mean, that's the bottom line. I love it.

Monica (45m 5s): Road show, we’ll have to go do some camping and do the podcast from different huts. 

John (45m 10s): Yes, you're both welcome. I was going to say that and Jennifer knows me well enough to pick up the phone and Monica, you can too I hope now after talking, but if you want to use. Like do a live broadcast from love that Harriman camp. We've got a nice rec hall there. You could do it in there and

Monica (45m 30s): Yeah we can like interview your head of programs or something. Talk about 

John (45m 33s): Yeah, sure, that'd be neat. Yeah.

Monica (45m 38s): It's so important. And I love what you're doing. and again, somebody being in the south, I just wasn't familiar with it at all. So it's thrilling to know, and I appreciate Jennifer bringing you to our attention. And I'm really excited about your book. I'm going to go find the outdoor citizen.

Jennifer (45m 53s): And here I am thinking it was recent because of COVID, like all my time and like space is completely warped out of perspective. So, sorry about that, John.

John (46m): No, no, no, no, no. You’re both outdoor citizens. And when you think about the book as just a collection of ideas. But I think one of the main premises of it is the opportunity that we have in creating outdoor cities and outdoor communities, how do we as individuals really lead the way in our respective cities, towns, neighborhoods cause more of us need to speak up. I think we're, still beholden to the old Eisenhower era. Figure out a way to accommodate more cars. It's held us back in so many ways.

And I think one of the refreshing things with COVID is there's this, I call the great outdoor reset, coming back to the outdoors and they're understanding the urgency around climate change. But there's also, I think, a huge opportunity for us at this point to say, okay, folks are okay working from home. You can go in the office a couple of days a week. So thinking about, maybe providing more time for folks to get into the office when they need to, with active transit, thinking about when, and you don’t have to be as cool as wework or some of these companies, but thinking about corporations and what they can do to add value and add quality of life to get their employees into the office. if there are great programs, like Walk with Walsh in every city, right.

Jennifer (47m 32s): Thanks, John, thank you.

Monica (47m 37s): How do we get that in every city, Jen, come on. 

Jennifer (47m 38s): We’ll work on that together. Three of us, we break up plenty of time. Oh goodness.

Monica (47m 46s): Well John this has been amazing. 

John (47m 46s): Thank you. Thanks for your great work, I really appreciate your podcast and all the great work you're doing. I can't wait to get down to your community and see it. That’s the model. 

Jennifer (48m 02s): John, you would love it. You would absolutely, it will change so much about you. You already do so much work outdoors, but when you see Serenbe, it just blows your mind. It really does, it changes everything.

Monica (48m 09): And you can, you can talk about the book you could do a talk. 

John (48m 12s): Sure. Yeah. I'd love it, thanks.

Monica (48m 13s): People are crazy for the outdoors here. 

John (48m 18s): Will you please both send me your address and I’ll send you a couple of things.

Monica (48m 20s): Oh yeah, of course.

Jennifer (48m 24s): Well thank you, John. 

Monica (48m 27s): And we'll put everything in the show notes, so everybody sign up, become a member, get the magazine. And when you're in the Northeast, go search out these beautiful spaces.

John (48m 37s): Sounds great. Thank you both. It was great to see you. 

Monica (48m 46s): So Jennifer, this was just one of those interviews where I feel like I could have kept talking to him for another hour. 

Jennifer (48m 53s): I know. John is so great. And just offer such a great perspective of someone who is an advocate for nature on all these incredible levels.

Monica (49m): Exactly. So AMC, there's a real emphasis on not only getting people outside. And I like that, he talks specifically about providing people with the tools they need to thrive outdoors, right. to be prepared, but also equity and access. How do we make it a welcoming environment for everybody, as well as all the policy work he's doing and climate research, it's such a robust organization.

Jennifer (49m 23s): It is so robust. What were some of your takeaways?

Monica (49m 26s): Well, let's see, I love the way he talks about how the real goal at the end of the day is to create these resilient and robust systems where nature plays a vital role in the way that, communities and cities develop and really, how we can conceive of these ideas ourselves, just putting nature in the center of things and really asking ourselves, how do we start to, de- prioritize the extraction of things from nature and really start looking at things in a more holistic way.

Jennifer (49m 53s): We didn't have time to get into specifics today with John, but there's a really interesting project that the AMC is working on called the Maine Woods Initiative, where they seem to be working really closely with a community whose economy is tied to timber. So they are exploring what sustainable forestry looks like and how we can incorporate this model into some of the systems that drive the economy. we'll link that in our show notes.

Monica (50m 11s): Yeah. And that's such a great example of just some of the work that AMC does beyond getting people outside. I also like that they kind of juggle these two things, the sort of wonky climate and policy aspects that goes into, like I talked about like kids camps, wonky climate and policy aspects that you can get through their education and even of kids camps without losing sight of how vital it is for people to have their own connection to nature.

Jennifer (50m 35s): It's sort of what we tried doing in our show in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. So head to our show notes, we'll, you'll find everything you need to know about the Appalachian mountain club, their programming membership, and all the great work they're doing for planetary health

Monica (50m 48s): All right. And we'll see you again in a couple of weeks.