Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World?

Monica (8s): Hi, Jennifer. 

Jennifer (9s):  Hey Monica. 

Monica (11s): We had the most amazing conversation last week with Jeff Tkach, the Chief Impact Officer at Rodale Institute. 

Jennifer (17s): Yes. So for those who may not know, Rodale Institute is widely recognized as the founder of the modern organic agriculture movement and the certification you see on your veggies. Their mission is to expand organic regenerative practices through research, education, and farmer training. And in his role, Jeff oversees the partnerships and programs that help Rodale achieve those goals. 

Monica (38s): Rodale is on the cutting edge of research of organic farming. And Jeff is an absolute wealth of information. We go pretty deep into this episode, talking about everything from Rodale's research into soil health and nutrition, to organic and regenerative standards, even into carbon sequestration. 

Jennifer (54s): It was so fascinating. So without further ado, let's get to a interview with Jeff Tkach. 

Jennifer (1m 7s): Well Jeff, how are you? We are so happy to have you here on Biophilic Solutions. 

Jeff (1m 11s): I am great, Jennifer. It's such an honor to be here today. Thank you so much for having me as your guest. 

Jennifer (1m 17s): I'm going to start by saying you might hear a little background noise because I am back to my New York city apartment and there's some traffic outside. So I just want to put that out there. Monica, how are you today? 

Monica (1m 27s): I’m great, it’s a beautiful day here at Serenbe and Jeff you actually just landed from Pennsylvania. 

Jeff (1m 33s): Literally just landed. And I feel like I was transported to another world and to a world that I always look forward to arriving at. 

Monica (1m 41s): Well we love having you here, and I know I'm going to learn a lot about Rodale and what you're doing here in the Southeast, as well as I've heard, we're going to talk about some vegetables today. 

Jennifer (1m 52s): I cannot wait to get into the vegetable conversation.

Monica (1m 55s): I know. So give us a tiny little touch about your background and your work at Rodale, what you're doing right now in your role. 

Jeff (2m 0s): Sure. Yeah. So I've been with the Rodale Institute for, 4 years. I serve as the Chief Impact Officer of the organization. I'm on the lead to the core leadership team. I oversee all of the external operations, all the, all the parts of Rodale Institute, the touch, the outside world, and that are measured through our impact. It's a very humbling honor to do that work and Monica, you and I have known each other in other iterations by journey to this work was a bit of a, a circuitous routes, a route, I guess you could say, and started working through the publishing industry on and off for about 16 years. 

And through that work connected with the work of Rodale Institute and a roundabout way. I have the honor of serving on the board of directors of the Rodale Institute for about a year and a half before falling madly in love with the work and begging the board to give me a job. So I've been with them full time, as I mentioned for four years. And it's been an incredible experience so far. 

Monica (2m 58s): And you guys opened Rodale multiple research centers across the country over the past year or so. And one of them is just up the street, the South Eastern research center at a beautiful farm called many-fold. And I know you're here this week to do a lot of outreach and partnerships and discussions, but really what we want to talk about, you know, cause this is the Biophilic Solutions podcast is soil today. 

Jeff (3m 23s): Awesome. My favorite topic. 

Monica (3m 26s): I know, and Jennifer and I were just talking before you got on that, you know, Jennifer, what is it, a healthy soil…

Jennifer (3m 34s): Soil health is human health, correct? Is that what you kind of talk about Jeff?

Jeff (3m 37s): Yeah, actually that's our mission. So the mission statement of Rodale Institute was written by our founder  75 years ago. J I Rodale said that healthy soil equals healthy food equals healthy people. So that's really been the guiding thesis of our work for over seven decades. It's a pretty profound.

Monica (3m 56s): You guys really founded the term Organic right? 

Jeff (4m 1s): J. I. Rodale, yeah. And the current vernacular, a J. I. Rodale was credited for coining the term organic as it's used today, a that happened around May of 1942 where he, we, he coined the term organic agriculture as a production method for producing food. 

Monica (4m 17s): And touch on, because I think it's everywhere right now, the term Regenerative is something that everybody's talking about. And I know that's something that you guys are also working very hard to sort of put a surround around that as far as agriculture. Can you touch on that for a minute? 

Jeff (4m 33s): Yeah. Well, it's rare when there is a such a visionary founder as there was in J. I. Rodale and then to have a next generation a in his son, Robert Rodale, who was in my opinion, even more visionary. So imagine J. I. Rodalr coined the term organic as it relates to agriculture in the 1940s and the 1970s, his son, Robert Rodale became the leader of the Rodale Institute and it was a world traveler. So he spent a lot of time in third world countries. He's spent a lot of time in Africa and Asia and as he would travel around the word, sustainability was coming into, into Vogue at that time. 

And he hated that word sustainability. And the reason he hated the word sustainability was because, you know, he imagined he was this agricultural leader traveling around to these countries where the agricultural regions had become so desertified because of soil mismanagement and because of ecological destruction, and he felt himself as I look around and I hear the word sustainability, I think to myself, there is nothing here to sustain. What, what at the soil level of these broken agricultural systems, everything needs to be regenerated. 

And he became enamored by this idea of regeneration or regenerative agriculture. And the way Bob Rodale saw it was if we, as farmers, focus all of our efforts and energies on rebuilding the soil, the health of the soil, then the crops growing in that soil, we will get healthier, the people consuming those crops will get healthier. Two, by the way, the farmer who's growing those crops, their bottom line is going to improve. And if their bottom line improves, then guess what the community is going to flourish economically. 

And so everything in an agricultural system rooted and grounded in healthy soil, everything in that system regenerates, it's like a, it's a ripple out affect. And so Bob Rodale coined the term regenerative agriculture, and today, some 40 years later, Rodale Institute has come forth with a new, the highest bar standard in agriculture called the Regenerative Organic certification. So Rodale Institute has actually put a standard behind the word Regenerative, we're the first to do that. And so it's a very humbling and exciting time for us in our history. 

Jennifer (6m 49s): I love that. There's also something I know you talk about a lot in your businesses about what is hidden hunger. A I know that there's a lot of talk about what is hidden hunger and what barriers prevent most Americans from accessing high quality organic food in their everyday lives would you say? 

Jeff (7m 5s): Yeah, well, as the soil goes we go. And so what's happened through the destruction and decimation of our agricultural systems over the last 50 to 70 years, primarily through the advent of industrial agriculture, chemical based agriculture, we have so degraded the health of our soil, that the food we are eating today is lacking. So you can be well fed, but under nourished, that's this idea of hidden hunger, where we are not short on calories in this country, right? 

There's plenty of food to go around. It's just the kind of food we're eating is so devoid of nutrients because the decimation and the depletion of our soils, that we are walking around with hidden hunger. And so at Rodale Institute, we're working through it. And we've just launched a study that Monica alluded to a moment ago. It's actually the first study of its kind in the world called the vegetable systems trial. We call it VST. And this is the first study in the world that seeks to answer the question is organic food truly more nutrient dense, is a truly worth it? 

Why am I spending 30, 40, 50% more to buy organic food? When in fact, no one has ever proven whether or not organic food is truly more nutritious. And so that's what we're setting out to do. And I think that this particular study of any scientific study we've ever done in our history, this one holds the most power because if we truly do find that organic food is more nutrient dense, well, that changes everything that changes everything at the grocery store. So it's  very exciting.

Monica (8m 39s): And quickly just to sort of touch real quickly back on the Regenerative for our listeners. The difference between organic and regenerative as far as a certification would be.

Jeff (10m 40s): Well, so right now, the USDA, the USDA houses, the standard for organic agriculture back in 1990, there was some legislation passed called the national organic production act. And by 2002, we began to see that little USDA, organic logo rollout on products on shelves, across the country, in grocery stores and on textiles. And, and so for over 20 years, we've had an audited standard held under our US government. And so people, you know, often wonder is organic, can you really trust it? And when in fact the reality is yes, organic food when you purchase it, it's one of the only if not the only audited standards in our grocery store. So it's a very trustworthy thing, even though it's come under some criticism recently, by and large, it is something you can trust. Now, fast forward to today, many farmers are beginning to co-op the word Regenerative. They're trying to bypass the organic certification. And they're saying, well, I am a regenerative farmer. Well, the sad reality is that the word Regenerative in that sense has not actually been, there's no standard behind it. 

Until now, and so Rodale has, we've actually said, it's not enough just to be Regenerative. It's not enough to be organic. We're setting the highest bar standard where a farmer's should be both regenerative and organic. And so what's happening is a lot of large-scale farmers, our beginning to embrace regenerative practices, which we applaud. We think it's a great thing. Farmers are moving in the right direction by embracing regenerative agriculture, but in terms of an actual audit standard, it's not there yet. 

Monica (12m 16s): When will we see that in like our grocery stores? 

Jeff (12m 19s): Well Rodale Institute, officially launched the Regenerative Organic certification in partnership with Dr. Bronner's and Patagonia and several other brands. That standard is housed under there under the Regenerative Organic Alliance. And that product is on shelfs. So today you can go to the grocery store, a grocery store and find a Regenerative, Organic Dr. Bronner's coconut oil. You can find Regenerative Organic rice products. So there is a slew products, and you can learn more at regenorganic.org for a whole list of items there 

Monica (12m 50s): And should we be demanding that of, I don't want to say demanding, should we be requesting that from our grocery stores or asking our farmers? Cause, cause my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong is that, you know, the regenerative takes into account the people. So people who are working on the farm and like, how are they being treated the animals, if it's a, you know, how the animals are being treated on a farm and then the soil health where the organic, maybe didn't take into those considerations. Is that true? 

Jeff (13m 27s): You, you nailed it actually. You did, so there's three pillars. And so yes, under the organic certification, the current USDA, a standard does not account for soil health. How is a farmer treating the health from the soil? Okay, great. So the farmer is not using synthetic pesticides or herbicides, which we know are known carcinogens. They're destructive to the environment. That's great. We applaud any farmer that is certified organic, but to be a regenerative organic farmer, we're asking the farmer, how are you treating the soil? How are the animals in your farming system being treated? Are they being treated in a humane way? 

Are they given 24/7 access to pasture and to the outdoors? Are they being handled properly? And then thirdly, what about the human beings working in these farming systems? How are they being treated? Are they being paid a fair wage? Are they being given access to health care? Are they working normal hours or are they being taken advantage of? So the Regenerative Organic certification asks those three questions above and beyond the organic standard. And yes, consumers should be demanding this product in the marketplace. And as they do, the brands will have to respond. 

Monica (14m 39s): Can, I want to go back to what Jennifer asked you about sort of the hidden hunger and sort of the concept of if the soil is healthy and has nutrients in it that translates into the vegetables, which obviously we eat or the, you know, the food and then that then our body is taking in more nutrients. How, I want to go like a little wonky, like tell me a little more details about the vegetable system trial. Like how are you, how are you doing that research? 

Jeff (15m 7s): Yeah. Well, this is, this is an interesting study for many, a myriad of reasons. So what it is, it's, it's a side-by-side comparison of organic organically grown vegetables and conventionally grown vegetables. So we've essentially taken a several acre plot at Rodale Institute, okay. The study is about four years old. So about 4 years ago, we, we designed this study a, we have an advisory board, and we are trying to mimic conventional vegetable operation. 

So the way, the way that farmers are growing conventionally, grown vegetables, using synthetic pesticides and herbicides at scale, we've shrunken down into replicates. And we've, we've got plots that are basically mimicking these large-scale systems on a smaller plots that are more research-driven and then directly next to those plots, we've got organic plots. So, so, you know, plots of land that are growing the same exact vegetable, but using Rodale Institute’s organic best practices. So using cover crops, crop, you know, heavy and complex crop rotations, using integrated pest management to deal with pest pressure using organic methods. What's super interesting about this study is since the first land at rest. So we'd been on this farm there, our main campus in Pennsylvania, we're on 333 acres, and we've been on that land for over 40 years. So we've been managing that soil using Regenerative Organic methods for 4 decades. 

And this particular study is the first area of the farm that we're actually going to be degrading a portion of the soil, so think about that. So after 40 years of not spraying synthetic pesticides and herbicides, now all of a sudden we're going to start spraying. We have started spraying harmful chemicals in a very controlled way. Now these are scientists, the way they apply these chemicals, it's done in a very, a, not only a controlled way, but a very research-based way. So there's no drift, they’re very careful and make sure it doesn't mix with the other plots. 

So now we've watched in just a couple of years, we've actually watched how soil degrades and we last year, we, you have to keep in mind, this research is very expensive. So just to do the analysis of these five different vegetables. So they grow a root crop, a fruit crop and a leaf crop. There's five different types of vegetables grown in the vegetable systems trial. We send those samples off to a very sophisticated laboratories that has a very expensive diagnostic equipment. Then last year we sent off samples of purple potatoes.

So these are, these were a purple potato variety. Some are grown synthetically or conventionally using chemicals, and some were grown organically. And I happened to know the co owner of the laboratory, a called HRI lab's in the Midwest where we sent these samples. And Larry called me a few weeks, months before the data was published. I don't even know if the data's been published yet, peer reviewed. However, he anecdotally shared with me is he was astonished to call me and tell me that a, what they found preliminarily was 26 vital nutrients, micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, amino acids in the organic potatoes that existed at levels of 100 to 700 times higher than the conventional. 

After four years the purple potatoes grown organically had between 100 and 700 times higher, the amounts of nutrient, very, very tiny nutrients. These nutrients that we know safeguard us from cancers and from autism and autoimmune conditions. Oh, wow. Think about that. That's the only, after a couple of years, where are we going to be 20 years, 30 years? What are we going to learn in this study? Can you imagine? 

Monica (19m 4s): Well you hear that, that nutrient density has declined over the past 70 ish year's, but, and I'm not, you know, I don't know where I don't have the citing of that. I'm sure you guys do on your website, but like, but this is showing that it's declining over the last four years of doing conventional versus organic. 

Jeff (19m 24s): Just four years, exactly.

Monica (19m 26s): And, you know, 700, it's a huge number. I mean, but, but I would not want my vegetables to be a hundred times less effective if you will. 

Jennifer (17m 46s): So you know, getting no nutrients and your food. I mean, if you think about like all of the things you're eating, your trying to eat well, and the potatoes and the, and the kale or the carrots or whatever it might be. And you think you're doing well, you think you're doing good and you're not getting the nutrients really survive and thrive and our bodies, and that's, that's scary. You think that the auto immune issues and also autism, that's the scary plate that we're in.

Monica (19m 58s): I know that there's been a lot of discussion I'm around you, you know, the auto-immune and the autism with the synthetic pesticides too, you know, it's not just that the potentially the vitamins and the amino acids our at a lower level, but it's, what's being sprayed on the crops. Is that correct? As well? Like with that, we have a concern about that?

Jeff (20m 20s): And in some ways, so it's a much larger, even greater concern, his yes, the deleterious effects of these harmful known carcinogenic, synthetic pesticides, and herbicides that are, that are ubiquitous in our food and farming systems. You know, actually, I, I thought of a story just now is you were talking about that Monica, you know, we, we work a lot with our state government and you're in a, in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania is one of the leading producers of organic food in the nation when you were in the top three behind California. 

And so about six months ago, I was sitting in the state Capitol building in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania with one of the top government legislators in the state. And a, we were sitting with him and his staff trying to demonstrate to him the power of the work that Rodale is doing right in our own state to help farmers transition their farms to organic production. Ee're currently working, our consultancy launched two years ago, with a little bit of state funding. We, we got some money from our state because we have a very progressive governor who's beginning to see the future, which the future is organic. 

And he's been investing in Rodale a little bit and so much so that we were able to launch a consultancy. And now we are offering free consulting to any farmer in our state that desires to go organic. And we had zero clients when we launched the consultancy on day one, less than 24 months ago. And today we have over a 140 farms in the state that have said, I want to transition to organic. And just to give you some perspective, we're here in Georgia. I believe the total amount of organic farms in the state of Georgia is about a 140. 

So in two years, we've got a 140 new farms and Pennsylvania is on its way to having 1500 certified a certified organic farm. So I was sitting in his office, the hallowed marble incredible office, and our gorgeous state Capitol building. And we're talking about the work of Rodale Institute, he stops me mid-sentence. And he said, he said, I don't, I don't believe very much in that organic stuff. He goes. In the county I come from, which is a very agrarian county, he said, a, a carrot is a carrot potatoes are potatoes milk is milk. 

And the room just went dead silent. And the survey's in the room now, knowing that Rodale sits on 40 years of science, that would prove otherwise, he kind of turns to his staff and he looks at their eyes. And all I could say was “Do you really believe that?” And he said, “No it's the stupidest thing that I ever said”. 

Jennifer (22m 52s): Oh, wow. 

Jeff (22m 54s): And so we're living in a moment where that is very exciting to me, because we are waking up to the fact that number one, we, as humans, as a species have never lived in a time such as this, where we're so disconnected from farming that most people do believe that a carrot is a carrot, milk is milk, potatoes are potatoes, but now that Rodale is really looking under the hood into the soil and we begin to find answers to that question,  I think that we're going to wake up to a whole new consciousness around where my food comes from and how that food is produced. 

Jennifer (23m 30s): Do you think COVID also has a piece of that because of that time you've had to reflect, and we're actually spending more time in touch with nature. And the past year, maybe it's helping our eyes to be opened of what food actually looks like or should look like. 

Jeff (23m 45s): Jennifer I've never been more convicted that the last 24 months has accelerated transformational and positive change, unlike any other moment in recent history, you know, and during the pandemic, I remember it vividly. I mean, I remember the feeling of us all going into quarantine. That was the early spring. And it was almost like to the day, this sort of collective conscience in the United states' was lets start a garden, lets find a farmer in our community. And would you believe that direct farm sales during the quarantine? 

So in other words, last spring, farmers, all of a sudden their whole market with disrupted small-scale organic farmers that normally would sell into high end restaurants. They overnight, they lost all their businesses, but almost to a day, you go to any small scale, organic producer in this country and people, consumers were delivering literally driving up to the farm gate saying, how can I buy your, your produce from you and direct farm sales, a skyrocketed 420% year-over-year. The national gardening association reported that 22 million new gardens were planted in America last year, 22 million. So now all of a sudden, what did we do? We have a global pandemic, which is okay. We have a, what it did expose is we've got a very unhealthy population with, with, with a lot of pre morbidities and very weak immune system's. The second thing it did, was it exposed wow, we all of a sudden have a global supply chain that is frail and broken grocery store shelves went bare. 

And then consumer started asking, well I better get healthy. I better stay healthy. The number one thing I can do is take control of my food. And so people took it to their backyards. If they didn't do that, then they met a farmer in their community. And so I believe that this has completely appended America's relationship with food for the better. Yes. 

Jennifer (25m 40s): I think that’s great. Thinking about like the parallels of healthcare systems in that kind of way, right? Like where's our food coming from, we better start looking right now because we are an unwell country, really. 

Monica (25m 50s): Well, and it's interesting to think about, you know, why people choose organic, right. And I know that we sort of probably coincided a little bit with the uptick of just, you know, the availability and the certification because our kids were born in 2005, 2007. Right. So that's maybe sort of that early days, if you will, Jeff. And so we became more aware, not only for ourselves, but like we had these little bodies right. That we were putting food into. 

And so I think that that becomes an interesting thing. I know that a Wholesome Wave has done an amazing job with, you know, because obviously the price, it can be higher, and so creating equity and access at farmer's markets by, you know, doubling snap dollars, which is super cool, a farmer's markets. And I, and I think that the times that we go to somewhere amazing and have a real strawberry like the flavor or a tomato in season, the flavor profile is so amazing. 

But also, you know, I know on the website, you know, it really talks about how all of your decade long research, you know, beyond this current vegetable trial is like competitive yields, you know, and higher resiliency during drought. Tell us a little bit about that talking about soil again. And you know, people don't realize that with climate change, you know, organic has a huge benefit that we need to expand that. 

So can you talk a little bit about that and the goals with Rodale around the benefits of having organic agriculture versus conventional? 

Jeff (27m 34s): Sure. Yeah. You know, you'll often hear a sort of the, the storyline or the through line around organic agriculture in the main stream is that organic certainly cannot feed the world. That's a nice idea, but it can't be done at scale. It's more expensive. Well Rodale's and not just Rodale's, but many other highly respected universities and the USDA have all done similar studies that would prove the contrary. So at Rodale and we actually sit on the longest running side-by-side comparison of organic and conventional grain crops in the world. 

That's a study called the farming systems trial and it's a run for 40 years. And in that 40 years, we've proven through research and hard science that organic agriculture actually performs about the same with conventional in terms of yields. So sadly, but the reality is that most farmers are graded on one thing. So conventional farmers are graded on how much stuff can I produce. When you look at organic system's and compare them to a conventional guess what conventional the farming does out does outpaced organic in terms of yields in the first few years. 

So our farming system to draw the first five years, conventional was definitely winning that the day, but over 40 years as soil health improvements, which doesn't happen overnight, organic and conventional about are about equal in sorts of yields, except for a guess what, when there was a drought, which has, we are moving more into an a unstable era of climate where we're having more years of drought, or if it's not a drought, then it's extreme rain or these extreme weather events, organic systems are way more resilient. 

They out yield organic up to 40% in those years, while using a 45% less energy climate while sequestering way more carbon while producing more nutrient dense food. And then the best part is we are helping a farmer earn between three and six times more profit. When people ask me the question, Jeff Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World, my answer is how could it not? 

How could it not? And that's where, and so organic agriculture, it's really the farming in the future. It's farming for a better planet, it's farming for a healthier soil, a cleaner water, cleaner air, less carbon, and the atmosphere. And it's a path, it's our path forward. And I, I've never been more thrilled. Our work has accelerated unlike any other time in our history just in the last few years. And in recent months, we've been on several phone calls with some of the leading representatives and senators in the United States who are doubling down on a pathway around Regenerative Organic Agriculture. 

So I think the time is now for this movement.

Jennifer (30m 33s): And how would I, like just a regular person, support a local farmer? What would be like my chain of action to say, do I go to my local farmer's market and say, what are you using? Or how do you cultivate your land? Like what are the actions that I can take locally? 

Jeff (30m 46s): Yeah. Well, first of all, and this is for everybody Jennifer, everyone participates. And that's the beauty of it. As we, as we, as consumers, get more involved in this notion of agriculture, as we get more curious and we join in the dance and we'd begin to participate in this act of farming, we can actually demand the kind of a planet we all want to live on. So it is a law of supply and demand. You know, today, total US organic market share is like something like 6%. So 6% of all food at the grocery store is certified organic. There's economic theorists out there that predicted that when the market gets to 15%, that's the tipping point and how are we going to get there? 

Well, the market grew by 14.5% last year. So organic food sales were up at 14 and a half a percent year over year. So we're creeping towards that 15% total share. And the way we do that as the number one, we, I think of it in terms of concentric circles. So you're living in New York City. The first question you should ask yourself is what could I grow on my windows sill? What could I grow on my fire escape? Like just growing something, a basil plant. It does something to you. It connects you to Biophilia. It connects you to nature. 

If I understand it, the word Biophilia is a desire to commune with nature. Well, when you stick that basil seed in some healthy soil on your window sill and you watch that miracle unfold over several weeks and then you skip a few leaves off. Then you put it on, you have garnished a pasta dish with that. It does something to your heart. So that's sort of like concentric circle one. The next step out is, well, I travel a lot and that basil plant might die. Well, great. There's probably a green market on 14th street that you can go to on Saturday or Sunday. 

And you get to know a farmer. You get to know just one person and you build a relationship with them. You ask them about their farm, ask them about their soil health practices, ask them about, are they a regenerative farmer? Are they a Regenerative Organic farm? And you, you will never find a group more proud to talk about their craft than a farmer. And so I love to build a relationship with the relationships with farmers and then the next concentric, a concentric circle out from there is, what's the local co-op that I can join. 

How can I keep my food dollars in, in the greater New York Metro area? I want to make sure that the farmers surrounding New York city are getting my food dollars. And then when we do that, we build more resilient food communities. Then we don't have to become so reliant on international supply chains. Then we get to the reward farmers in our backyard, you know, in world war two, during the world war two area, some 45% of all the produce consumed in this country came from our own backyard. 

Jennifer (33m 27s): Oh, wow. I didn't know that. 

Monica (33m 31s): That's amazing 

Jeff (33m 33s): So half of the produce grown in this country was grown in our own backyards. Pre-pandemic, 17% of all of the food purchased at the grocery store was imported from other countries. 

Jennifer (33m 54s): Wow. 

Jeff (33m 47s): So if you think about that, we've been on a 70 year, march away from source, and now it's the simple things of growing some, something on your window sill, having a relationship with a farmer that you visit every Saturday morning on 14th street. It's the sort of ricochet effect of that, that changes the world. It changes the way we have, it changes our global supply chains. It localizes our food systems. It creates better, more resilient food economies. 

It connects us with nature. We don't have to turn all of our neighborhoods, I'm sorry, all of our farmland in the neighborhoods, because the more we devalue, farming the further we get away from nature. And that's, that's, that's the path we've been on, but we can, and we can reverse that by turning inward to that first concentric circle. 

Monica (35m 36s): Well and I, and I love what you're saying. It's very much the sort of unifying power of food. Right. And, and you know, all of us have to eat, right? So in a, in a sense, I mean, you, you do hear this, like we can vote three times a day or more possibly, you know, on what we want to do and what we decide to put in our bodies. Right. And so I always believe that it's like, by sharing the information is the first step, right? Because you can't unlearn what we've talked about today. 

Jeff (35m 7s): Exactly. Once you see you can't unsee. 

Monica (35m 10s): Yes, yes, yes. And I think, you know, that sort of rural and urban communities linking them together. Right. You talk about this a lot, Jeff. Right. So we're reliant on each other, you know, and really understanding the benefits of both, you know, so much of the country we think of this is a divide, but it's really a way to connect. 

Jeff (35m 34s): Yes, yes, yes. We meet our brother and our sister at the table. I don't care what our differences are. One thing that binds every one of us is food. To your point, 3 times a day, you consume food and what's been, what was interesting and I certainly don't want to go down a political rabbit hole here, but you think about the divide we all just lived through during sort of the political show that we all just observed. 

You know, it, it, and I, and I'm from Pennsylvania, I'm from a rural part of Pennsylvania where Rodale is based. And I relate to both rural and urban environments. So you, you, you, you go into these rural communities and they have felt forgotten. They have felt abandoned and they have felt devalued. And then through my work at Rodale Institute, you know, we've recently formed a pretty significant partnership with the largest commodity producer in the world, Cargill, which is a bit controversial that, why is Rodale working with Cargill? 

Well, because they're the biggest processor of grain in the world and they have a desire to go organic because that's where the market's going. Well, guess what, the number one barrier. Why do farmers not go organic? It's because they don't have commitments from producers to give them long-term contracts. They need food producers committing to that. They need technical assistance. And that's what Rodale's doing. So Cargill and Rodale have teamed up and we're going to tran— and through a food company called Bell and Evans, we're going to transition hundreds of thousands of acres over the next three to five years in the mid in the mid-west and the Northeast, farmer's have a 150 grain farmers that have the 150 or more acres can qualify to become a Rodale Cargill, a partner. 

And they we'll get free consulting from Rodale through the Cargill program, we'll hold their hand and help them be successful in their transition. And then because of Bell and Evans and their buying power they’re going to, Cargill is going to be able to offer a five-year contract to these farmers that have a very healthy rate with farmers. And now the farmer’s like wait a minute, I get Rodale the, the, the, the, the global leader in organic teaching me how to do it. And Cargill, the biggest commodity trader in the world is going to commit to me. Why wouldn't I go organic? And so all of a sudden that 32 year old tech entrepreneur that walks into a Whole Foods in downtown San Francisco wants to see organic chicken on the shelf is reliant upon his brother in the Midwest. 

Who's living in rural America who almost lost a family farm, but because of that 32 year old tech entrepreneur demanding chicken, organic chicken, everyone wins, right. They both thrive. They both get healthier. The water gets cleaner, the air gets cleaner, we sequester more carbon, a farmer gets to save the family farm. And guess what? Farming is fun again, because I'm making money now. And, and, and there's a, there's an economic ricochet. So if we could all come together around the table and realize we could put our differences inside and realize that we need each other to eat and to live on a healthy earth, that's the word I want to live in. 

Monica (38m 48s): Yeah, no, that's a beautiful and, and it just to touch on like climate again, cause I am sort of fascinated by the concept of drawing down carbon, right in the soil and, or not releasing it in the first place. Right. Are there, is there a data on something like that where if you are converting, you know, hundreds of thousands of acres from conventional to organic, you know, the soil health will be better. Are there numbers to share or is anybody studying like how much carbon benefit that is? 

Jeff (39m 22s): Sure, we should put a link in the notes, but Rodale Institute came out with a white paper last year called the regenerative agriculture, a down to earth solution. That's a, basically a whitepaper that it's a, it's a, it's a culmination of years and decades of science at Rodale that has proven that if we were to transition all of US farm land. So just farmland in the United States. And again, this is a position paper. It's not like, you know, it's not like this is going to happen overnight. 

But if in theory, not in theory, but through science, we've proven that if America was to take all of it's farm land, currently, transition it to organic production, we would be able to sequester all of the world's carbon emissions in US soils. Wow. So, so that's, that's not that doesn't mean, that doesn't take into account solar wind, all of the other climate measures in all the, the ways that we're improving our building's and our infrastructure that does that takes, if we were to do nothing else, if we were just to change the way we farm in this country, we would be able to sequester all, I mean, that's where our carbon belongs. 

Monica (40m 33s): No, it's exactly where it belongs. That is wild. OK. We’ll definitely pull that paper. And then the, one of the last things I wanted to ask is, I've been hearing you know sort of percolating and I, and I just haven't dug into it too much that some, and I don't know who who's paying them, but I've heard that farmer, there's a conversation about, we could pay farmers to sequester carbon. You, you know, when they're farming and, and maybe I'm doing a kind of a loose translation of that, but, but what's going on there. 

That sounds like a brilliant idea. If I'm a farmer or a, you know, an organic farmer, I'm thinking, well, that's a great way for me to make a few extra dollars, right. Or am I, am I simplifying it to much? 

Jeff (41m 14s): So, you know, you're not, and there's a lot of people that would agree with you. I think that at Rodale Institute we’re a little concerned with that model. And the reason is Monica is because Rodale is focused on practices, not outcomes. We have to find a way to reward farmers for producing food. That's where the, I mean, if you use carbon should just be the icing on the cake, but the whole purpose behind the Regenerative Organic certification is that it's a, a practice-based standard. 

If you want, if you're a whole goal was to a farm carbon. Well, guess what? I live in Pennsylvania about an hour north of me is the coal regions. So we actually mine a lot of coal in theory, in theory, a farmer. And there's always a farmer. There's always a person. I don't care which business you’re in, that finds a way to cheat the system. So if the, if the only intention of a farmer was to sequester carbon, I can go find a lot of coal dust and put it on my land. And by the way, I'm building, I’m sequestering carbon in theory. 

Monica (42m 13s): So it's not that I, as a farmer like Sarah or the farm's behind us, it's, you know, doing organic and, you know, potentially towards regenerative farming. And they will get, you know, kind of a credit because they can prove through their practices they've sequestered carbon. This thing that I'm hearing over here is more people are starting to, to your point. I think that's a really good differentiator. Like, oh, if you just create this outcome, I don't care how you do it. 

You'll get paid. It's not the, it's not the other way through your practices, one of the benefits is you'll also get a bonus because the good work that you're doing sequesters carbon. 

Jeff (43m 0s): Yes, that's exactly right. So we've, we've been getting interviewed a lot by federal legislators. And there, their, their policy team's basically saying, Hey, Rodale, what do you think we should be asking farmers in this country to do? And the answer I'm about to give you, it sounds so simple, but if we were to get farmers to do this, it would have a massive impact on global. So what we're suggesting is that farmers get paid to plant cover crops. So this is like Biophilia at its core right. 

So if you drive around most of the U S farmland, if you were to drive around the Midwest, or the Northeast, or even here in the south, throughout the winter months, you're going to see a lot of brown, right? Can anyone relate to like seeing brown fields, that should never be, if you come to Rodale in January, in Pennsylvania, in 30 degree weather, you're going to see green farm fields. Why is that? It's because we plant cover crops. Cover crops are nitrogen, often nitrogen fixing bio-diversity enhancing plants that get planted after, after a farmer harvests their cash, crop, corn soybeans, oats, wheat, hemp, whatever it is we then go immediately in that fall, we plant cover crops. 

And then that cover crop gets established over the, very quickly it gross. And what it does is it holds the soil in place. It enhances biodiversity, it attracts wildlife. It, it builds above-ground biophilia and below ground Biophilia. It sequesters carbon. All those winter months, if that farm field is bare, there's no photosynthesis happening. So December, January, February, March, there is no photosynthetic process happening on that land. So think about the millions and millions of acres that for six months sit barren when they could be pulling carbon out of the atmosphere and storing in the soil is so if we got farmer, if we paid farmers to plant something green on their fields all year round, that's when you can scale carbon Monica. 

Monica (45m 5s): That's a transformative idea. I love that. I'm glad that you clarified for me, because again, I keep hearing this little story over here, but I that's super helpful for me to be able to better speak to it. And I, and I really loved the practice versus outcome. One last question, and it will, well, two last questions. One, is there anything, I mean, there's a million things I know we could talk about, but is there anything that we haven't covered that you just want to touch on or to throw out? And then my, my real final question is like, how can we get involved? Like, how can our listeners get involved? 

Like, what is Rodale doing? Like, should we sign up for your newsletter? Like, what's a good action we can take? 

Jeff (45m 44s): Sure, I'll start with the first question. One thing that I want to talk about here before we end is a part of the Biophilic movement is, is about human health, right? And at the heart of who Rodale Institute is, we are a human health organization. We just use agriculture as the tool to get their, and soil health, but we see our self as a human health organization. And I want to just quickly mention where, what I'm so excited about when I think about our future is that we've begun to coalesce a conversation with the medical industry. 

We are beginning to work with medical doctors, and we hope to launch a first of its kind program in the United States in 2022. And so we're going to be calling the regenerative health immersions, and we're literally going to be inviting doctors to come for one week and get their hands on the soil and learn agriculture and to learn soil health. And we are going to build them a medical based conference and it's going to be held on a farm. 

Monica (46m 47s): That's amazing because they say that a medical professionals have like one hour of nutrition and that’s it. They never learned anything more, which blows my mind. 

Jeff (46m 57s): Yeah. But we've seen such a demand in recent years and months from the medical community. I've had the honor of speaking at some medical conferences. And when did you begin to educate them on agriculture they're like, we're not looking far enough upstream. We need to understand, we need to understand farming and doctors and farmers need to be at the same table. So super stoked about that idea. And if anyone listening is interested in helping to support that, that effort, we’re in the process of raising some final funding to be able to launch our first conference. 

So Monica is the answer, your question in closing, how can people get involved? We are at Rodale Institute, I'd encourage everyone listening to opt into our social, sign up for our newsletters, support our work philanthropically. We are a nonprofit. So, you know, you'd be amazed at what $10 a month can do to advance our mission. If you're hear in the South-East and you're listening, come visit our Southeast organic center just about a mile and a half from a Serenbe over at Manyfold Farm, our team there will be so thrilled to host you and yeah, please join the movement. 

And I go back to you, you know, as I shared with Jennifer, we all participate. So think about what, what concentric circle you want to begin with, but I encourage you to get on the journey. So thank you so much for having me today. 

Jennifer (48m 13s): I love this view, like the healthy soil, healthy food, healthy people. It's so simple when you think about it, but you explaining it to us the way you did today really helps me look at my food differently. And I thought I was like, good about, you know, what I eat, but really you're hitting it home about the farmer and how we all, you can all pay a, be a part of a, making a planet much healthier. So thank you for your time today, Jeff, we really appreciate it, 

Monica (48m 38s): A joy, Jeff. And I get to see you a little bit later this week. 

Jennifer (48m 41s): I’m kind of jealous by the way, I am kind of jealous I’m not there at a Serenbe with all of you.

Monica (48m 47s): I know Jennifer, I’ve got a house for you. 

Jeff (48m 49s): Monica, excited to hang with you and a few days, and Jennifer, we're 90 minutes from Midtown Manhattan. So you can come at anytime you want.

Jennifer (48m 57s) Fantastic, thanks, Jeff. Take care. 

Monica (49m 6s): Jennifer that was so great. I feel like I'm pretty familiar with this topic, but I still learned a ton. There are multiple things that really blew my mind. 

Jennifer (49m 15s): Same. Like if all the farms in the US went organic, we can sequester all the world's carbon. I mean, what?

Monica (49m 20s): I know it was really insane and then his whole conversation about cover crops and that's something I wasn't really aware of either.

Jennifer (49m 27s): It's just one way to protect soil health. And that leads to healthier, more nutrient dense foods. I had never heard of this before, but it makes so much sense when you think about it. I mean, healthy soil equals healthy food equals healthy people. 

Monica (49m 40s): I know, and when you look at organic regenerative farming over time, there's a real competitive advantage versus conventional methods. And it's much better for the planet, and for us. 

Jennifer (49m 47s): I know, I know. So the other thing I loved were the concentric circles that Jeff talked about and how just planting a basil plant on your apartment balcony, joining a local co-op, these things can have a huge impact on connecting to the food you eat, right? 

Monica (50m 3s): So the small steps that we can all take do you have a big impact when they're all put together and replicated by lots of people, you can't dismiss those small acts and how they shift our habits and mindset. 

Jennifer (50m 15s): So how to get involved. One of those things Jeff mentioned was following Rodale across your social channels. And all of those links are in our show notes. 

Monica (50m 22s): And if you are able to, to support Rodale with your dollars, that also goes a long way and look out for the Regenerative Organic certification. We have another link in our show notes that will help you find some brands you can feel great about supporting. 

Jennifer (48m 43s): Exactly. Be an informed consumer. 

Monica (50m 36s): That’s right. Cause once you know, you know, that's right. All right, until next time, Jennifer. 

Jennifer (50m 46s): All right, Monica. See you soon. Bye. Bye.