Biophilia is Imperative to Our National Security with Col. Mark “Puck” Mykelby

Jennifer (1s): Hey Monica

Monica (2s): Hey Jennifer. 

Jennifer (3s): So what are we doing today? Today's episode is a bit different than usual, isn't it? 

Monica (6s): Yes, it is, today we're actually sharing an episode of my other podcasts ceremony stories where my co-host Steve Nygard and I interviewed Colonel Mark “Puck” Mykleby we call him puck. This interview is from December of 2019. 

Jennifer (22s): So right before the pandemic 

Monica (24s): Exactly, literally feels like a lifetime ago. So we wanted to share this specific episode with our listeners for a few reasons. One, Puck was instrumental in founding the biophilic Institute, which is where the biophilic solutions podcast comes from. And his background, interestingly, is actually in national security and he argues that biophilia is hugely important to all of us from a national security perspective. 

Jennifer (49s): Wow, I think that is such an intriguing idea. I never would've thought of that or putting those two together. 

Monica (57s): Yeah. I think really impactful and interesting and sort of contextualizes biophilia in a new and different light than what we've talked about so far. So the other reason I really wanted to share this episode of Serenbe stories with our listeners is because Puck really inspired Steve Niagara and the founder of Serenbe to really create the Biophilic Institute, which you guys will hear more about in this episode. Plus, we've got this amazing biophilic leadership summit coming up in a few weeks, which is usually an in-person gathering of biophilic thought leaders to present topics like land use, planning, infrastructure, regenerative ag, climate, et cetera. 

But of course like many other things this year we've been virtual, obvious reasons. But if you're listening to this podcast, we have a special discount for you in the show notes. And you'll be very familiar with a lot of the themes and concepts that we do at the leadership summit, as well as what Puck's going to talk about today. 

Jennifer (1m 44s): I encourage our listeners who this podcast has resonated with to take a look at the link in our show notes, and maybe grab a ticket. You'll get to interact with these amazing thinkers and scholars and people who are leading the charge in a way that you just can't do while listening to the podcast. 

Monica (2m): All right, let's get to our interview with Colonel Mykleby. How are you today? Steve? 

Steve (2m 07s): I’m good. Looking forward to our interview discussion today. 

Monica (2m 15s): I know, today, Steve and I are talking to a very important figure in our lives. Part of the national security and sustainability conversation. I want to welcome Puck Mykleby to Serenbe stories via phone. This is our first phone interview. Puck, are you there? 

Puck (2m 30s): I’m here 

Monica (2m 31s): Am I saying your name correctly? Your last name correctly, Puck? 

Puck (2m 37s): It’s Mykleby, but you can call me whatever you want. 

Monica (2m 39s): Okay. Fabulous Puck Mykleby well, Puck has quite a story that we're going to hear from him today. He's the co-founder of the Long Haul Capital Group, which catalyzes, supports, and propels walkable, sustainable communities. He also talks about that as the future, not only for the United States, but the world. Puck is also graduate of the Naval academy. He has a master's degree in both military studies and national security studies. And during his time in the Marine Corps, he served as the Special Strategic Assistant to the Chairman in the Office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, quite a mouthful, Puck. 

Now, when he was there, he developed the national strategic narrative that said sustainability is what's needed to really become the country's national focus if we're going to face the challenges of the 21st century. But Puck, my first question that I ask everybody is how did you come into our world? How did you first meet Steve and Serenbe? 

Puck (3m 30s): By your world are you talking Serenbe, are you talking about sustainability or what?

Monica (3m 40s): That's a great question. I'm specifically talking about Serenbe. How did you first come to us? I know you were a fellow back in what Steve, 2000– 

Puck (3m 47s): 2012. 

Monica (3m 51s): Okay, great. Was that your first introduction to Serenbe or how, how did that whole thing come together? 

Puck (4m): It was, it was definitely my first introduction to Serenbe and we can thank the fighting Phyllis Blywise for making that connection. I had met, I had met Phyllis I believe it was at CNU 18 when it was in Atlanta. I believe that's where I first met her. And with Phyllis over a martini, I'm sure it was, I just started chatting. And next thing I know she had invited me to come to Serenbe. 

Monica (4m 26s): Right. And CNU was the Congress for the New Urbanism, is that correct? 

Puck (4m 30s): That is correct. That is correct. And I was just speaking there based on the work that I had done, by this time I was retired from the Marine Corps, but it was based on the work that I had done at Special Operations Command at the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And Phyllis just thought it would be a good idea for me to come and visit Serenbe and talk to the folks there. And that's where I met Steve. 

Steve (4m 56s): And so Phyllis was chairing our fellows program to where we invite interesting people who were writing a book or in places, different places in their career to spend some downtime just hanging out here. 

Monica (5m 9s): Right. And did you do a talk or how– did you meet people here Puck? What was your interaction with the residents? 

Puck (5m 16s): Yeah, it was all of the above, but gave, I think just one presentation about the work that I had done at, for Admiral Boland when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff around a document that me and a Navy captain, I was a Marine Colonel at the time when I was in the Pentagon, but the Navy Captain Wayne Porter had written called the national strategic narratives. That bottom line said this sustainability needs to become our grand strategic national imperative. If we're going to face the challenges, not only the challenges of 21st century, but be able to grab onto the opportunities, present in the world and get back to a place of leading from a position of opportunity and not having such a, what I would say, a masochistically nostalgic focus on threatened arrests. 

Steve (6m 03s): And Puck It's always interesting to hear you tell the story on the day you got the call to show up at the Pentagon for this work. Share the, the short version of that. 

Puck (6m 17s): Sure. I was actually working on strategy for special operations at Special Operations Command Global Strategy. This was 2007 to 2009, and we just took a fundamentally different way of approaching strategy rather than a really linear approach. We took a more systems-based approach and the things that we focused on were, really came out of some of the command, the commander of special operations command at the time was a Navy four-star Navy Admiral named Eric Olson. 

And the guidance that he gave my team was to figure out how to get out in front of the sound of the guns. I just want to say that again, because it's really important, not only in terms of an insight, but also for me personally and professionally, but get out in front of the sound of the guns. In other words, try to figure out how special operations forces could go out and shape the environment so we wouldn't have to go fight. And that was really interesting. And so that led us in a different direction. 

Not only to look at the world more from a system space view and not from a control in power kind of view, but more as a participant in, in an ecosystem. And we started looking at things like urban design, which ended up agriculture, female health and education. Anything that we thought would be really catalytic at the tactical level that would have large systemic and strategic catalytic impact and Admiral Mullen in 2008, who was a new chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, he came down to special operations command. We gave him a little dog and pony show, a little briefing on what we were doing and he liked it. And then all of a sudden this guy named Wayne Porter, Navy captain with long time on Admiral Mullen's personal staff, really brilliant guy. He gave me a call and just said, Hey, Admiral Mullen told me to contact you. And so I talked to Wayne a bit and next thing I know in July of 2009, I got a call said, get you, you know, get your butt up to the Pentagon because this is coming from Wayne. You and I are gonna figure out a new grant strategy for the country. 

And so I got out my sea bag and I was up in the Pentagon, a place I  was really good at avoiding. And I gotta say it was, it was other than commanding Marines. It was one of the best experiences of my life, just because Admiral Mullens is just such an incredible guy, just an incredible guy. So it was a real honor to work for him, especially on a project that big. 

Steve (10m 36s): And so that was that was two years as I remember that you were at the Pentagon working on this and then filed the report? 

Puck (10m 44s): Yeah, it was, it was always supposed to be two months and then it became  two years. So there you go. But yeah, I got there in July of ‘09 and a month later we had written a national strategic narrative. So in August of ‘09, I thought my job was done. And, but given what we were saying, that it really wasn't in the realm of the military. Quite frankly, it wasn't the job of the joint chiefs of staff really to dictate. 

And it's not just, you know, this really great document called the constitution, the military doesn't dictate domestic policy. It doesn't dictate any policy as a matter of fact, but we were really trying to make a, a call that we really had it wrong that this focus on threatened risk and really wasn't the direction our country needed to go, that we needed to get back to being the land of opportunity. And that's, we saw sustainability both from a national security perspective, but also from an economics and I would say a prosperity perspective. That's the direction we needed to go. New systems, food, water, energy, built environment, education industry, to really take on the big challenges that we face, whether they're climate change, whether they're social dysfunction, issues of equity and quite frankly, fiscal and economic issues, we really needed to start moving in a different direction. And, but given the fact that it was coming out of the office of the chairman of joint chiefs of staff, there were a lot of political sensitivities there. So Admiral Mullen and really liked what he saw and what we were talking about, but there was a certain hesitance to, to proclaim it, given that that was really the responsibility of our civilian political leadership to come up with those kinds of ideas and direct action. 

So two months turned into two years of trying to get Washington DC to do something different. 

Steve (12m 40s): And then in summary, did you make a recommendation to Congress? 

Puck (12m 43s): We never made a formal recommendation to Congress. In fact, you know, we weren't allowed to go talk to any political folks until just after the new year, 2011 and Admiral Mullen sent us over to see Congresswoman Jane Harmon, who is a blue dog Democrat out of California and the longtime friend of Admiral Mullen. And so he, he sent us over to talk to her. We were supposed to have 15 minutes with Congresswoman Harmon and that turned into a two hour conversation and she loved what she saw. 

She loved what she read and she was pretty fired up. Unfortunately, she was retiring from Congress, but when she got over to head the Woodrow Wilson Center in DC, she took our narratives and she launched it into the public domain from there with Tom Friedman and seeing it and had a gallery of folks debating the merits of the paper that we'd written. 

Steve (13m 39s): What am I remembering about the National Defense Act of 1947 that you all said needed to be adjusted? Or am I thinking of something else? 

Puck (13m 51s): No, no, you are. I mean, anything from national security act in 1947 was basically our recognizing that the grand strategic challenge facing our nation was the rise of communism, the Soviet Union. And so we fundamentally restructured, particularly our national security apparatus to take on that challenge. So that's where the actual department of defense was established. The CIA was established, all the instruments that we use to take on the Soviet union under George Kennan's concept of containment that he put forth in 1946. 

So we had a grand strategic concept of containment. And then we created a national strategic construct under NSA, 47 to take on that challenge. And there were subsequent modifications to, to the national security act over time. But what we found out after the Soviet Union collapsed, our country never did a reset. We never said, okay, what's the next thing. I mean, you know, history moves forward, interests move forward. And we just kind of accepted that old Cold War construct that was basically leveraged force and power to pursue our interests, to pursue our national interests are what we call prosperity and security. 

It no longer fit the world that we face anymore, but you still, we kept up. We keep, we kept doubling down and I would say, we still are doubling down. If you just look at the recent budget, we're almost up to we’re over three quarters of a trillion dollars, but all in on just our defense budget, meanwhile, we're cutting things like EPA. We're cutting things like even our state department funding to our diplomats and our foreign aid education. It's, these are the challenges that we face in 21st century, no longer just military or there are security challenges. 

I'm a Marine all day long. And I mean, there are people out there that need to get headbutted into submission, but that can't be our, our go-to positions in the world. The world is screaming for leadership to try to figure our way forward so that the human human beings can thrive as well as our planets can continue to flourish. So that's always our perspective. It still is my perspective, and this nation needs a big wake up call, particularly what's going on in Washington DC today, it's only gotten worse. It hasn't gotten better since my time in Washington, 10 years ago, 

Steve (16m 17s): So Monica, you could imagine when Phyllis said, there's this interesting retired Marine that you should have coffee with. I said, sure, Phyllis, whatever you say, but after the first coffee, I could hardly wait for more. And so Puck and I had coffee almost every morning during his stay here. And when, as Puck learned about Serenbe is when he said, what you're doing here is literally an act of national defense. And as I shared many of the things that we wanted to do, and one of it was to create a campus for university students from really around the world to come for a semester away in environmental planning. 

And this would be part of a, of an entire movement to also educate or create a think tank for educators and our urban planners in the United States. I was calling this at the time the working title was the Green School or something like that. But because of Puck's encouragement, we launched the Biophilic Institute. That really wasn't the name at the moment we, we worked on the name, but it was Puck's encouragement to do this. 

And Puck said, if you'll do it, I will be the Vice Chair. And through these years, Puck has remained the Vice Chair of the biophilic Institute as we move forward to actually make some of these things happen. 

Monica (17m 42s): That’s incredible Puck. And did you have any idea when you came here that that would, this would be sort of this long-term relationship that we, you had? 

Puck (17m 50s): No, absolutely not. I mean, I just thought this was another speaking gig. I mean, I mean, who doesn't love Phyllis, as Steve said, you'd do anything just because she, she tells you to do it, you know, but to me the most beyond just meeting the great folks that are residents at Serenbe, the fact of the matter is that when you can physically see, touch, taste, what Serenbe is about, you know, it's that really visceral connection to something that is special. 

But the thing that it's just not, it doesn't have to be just Serenbe, that this is a pattern of design. This is a pattern of living. It's a pattern of community that there is zero reason why any community can’t take those principles and apply them. And that's what really drew me is that the scalability of the design logic, it tracked directly to what we're trying to say in the national strategic narrative when I was at the Pentagon, because the fact of the matter is what we're talking about in terms of a macro global impact that the United States could have is that our, you know, and maybe this isn't the best, most current language, I really don't care. 

It's just that our smart roads at home can become our smart power abroad because these conditions of community these conditions of sustainability, these conditions of just civic connection and civic responsibility are, are global in nature. You can have your own country. I'm a firm believer in, you need to be proud of your nation, but we still share the same planet. And we still have the same issues and we still have the same problems, but we still have the same opportunities. And if we don't grab them, we don't design, we don't grab onto them. 

We recognize them with a clear vision towards the future and what kind of life and world we want our kids and our grandkids to live in. If we don't act upon it now, all current trend lines show that we are really, we are being future eaters. We are consuming our kids' future and our grandchildren's futures simply because we won't do the work to shape their world. And that, and I hate to, I'm sorry, I'm going off on a rant on this, but this is important. 

The fact that Serenbe exists, that you could take these basic design principles and create it and make it real and see the clear manifestation of it just in the way that citizens treat each other and how engaged they are. That's a really powerful, powerful message that our country used to have, democracy in America, those ideas and those designs are not lost, Serenbe manifests that in real form today in 2019. And it's something we ought to be grabbing onto and scaling and propagating not only across the country, but across the world. 

Monica (20m 49s): No, I mean, obviously we, I mean, thank you for those kinds of words. And like, we really obviously really agree with you. And I think we talk about all, all the time, how do we connect people with each other and nature? And I think you've articulated that in a really beautiful way. I know that once that all of the research that you did and then, you know, all the work that you presented to the Admiral and then to Jane Harman, you were then once it was declassified, I believe you were able to turn it into the book that I mentioned earlier, the New Grand Strategy. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

And then, you know, really maybe what you feel like the impact that has had over the past 10 ish years. And I think maybe you were at a think tank for a minute too. Like, can you talk a little bit about that and where you felt like you got some traction and where is there opportunity for all of us to think about continuing to push that message forward? 

Puck (21m 41s): Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, what we did for Admiral Mullen, and matter of fact, all the work that I did at special ops, correct command, none of it was classified. None of it was because these are common conditions, I think was part of the strength of it. It wasn't, you know, a secret squirrel kind of thing. It was just, you know, in my mind it was common sense. It's basic, God-given organic design, whatever the cool word is now, integrative design or biophilic design, whatever. 

It's just basic common sense how systems are supposed to be put together. I mean, how Darwin wrote about it as lengths, you know, you know, it's amazing that Darwin, it wasn't about survival of the fittest. It was about if you remember, he wrote about a spring bed and how every organism that spring bed had a role to play to make that a vibrant biosphere. And that, that, that was the logic that we were using is how can we be the best contributor to this system that we belong in that we happen to be in. 

Steve (22m 50s): And then did the Woodrow Wilson Institute, publish that? And is that still available online? Your actual paper?

Puck (22m 55s): Yeah, it's still online. If you just Google National Strategic Narrative, it'll take you right to the Woodrow Wilson center, a website and the documents there. I mean, the documents itself that we wrote was purposely not prescriptive in nature. I mean, it's not a strategy, per se. It was just trying to, again, catalyze action in DC and the reason why we'd work prescriptives and because we were very aware and clear-eyed by the fact that we were in the military, particularly the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that, you know, we weren't going to cross the lines of the constitution and start trying to dictate policy or, or strategy when it was so heavily focused on our domestic condition and our domestic requirements. 

And so this was truly the realm of civilian leadership. I will say, try to get to answering that. I think it was the basic question is that, you know, we tried really hard to get the civilian leadership to grab it. Now, the principles at the time, were obviously you have president Obama, secretary Clinton, secretary Gates, and Admiral Mullen, and all of them had a common worldview and dare I say it, they, they actually liked each other. They all got to hear about the principles that we were pushing. 

They liked it, and yet we still couldn't get anything done, and that's not a dig on them. That's just the nature of our Washington political environment. I got immensely frustrated. So I retired, I just said, this is too big of an idea to let it languish in DC and really set a sights on, okay, how could the private sector be the catalyst for these principles? How could the private sector lead and have, you know, create the parade so that the government can jump in front of it? And so that's what I did. 

So after I retired, what's new America foundation for a couple of years, they were picked up by the business school at Case Western Reserve University to develop these ideas. And that's when we wrote the book where we really examined the economics of sustainability and, you know, the economics, anything, you know, ironclad, no, nothing is but the demand and the supply. I mean, all these basic added Smith principles, they're all in play for us right now. 

And we have plenty of capital to juice that, it's just that right now we've got really antiquated policy is what I would say the most significant, at least in my mind is that we still are incentivizing drive to qualify suburban sprawl growth. It's amazing, even though all the data is in that fiscal data is in on how that's unsustainable and not to mention environmentally it's un sustainable and social dislocation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that's why, you know, even at Case Western, you know, going from the military where you're very action oriented into a think tank, which was nice, don't get me wrong. 

It was bright enough to then go into the academic world, which was nice. Don't get me wrong, but none of them are action oriented environments. And I don't really want to be part of a think tank, I want to be part of a do tank. And that's why me and my partner for a long time, since 2010 Patrick Dougherty, we decided to stand up Long Haul Capital Group as a way to bring capital to not only catalyze, but support, propel, more walkable, sustainable communities, because we see that as the future, not only in the United States, but around the world. 

Monica (26m 33s): Tell me a little bit about, cause that's, I think that's a really interesting point that I think, well, I'll speak for myself, but I think many of us feel like the government is not the answer. And so where can we turn for action and doing, and so tell us a little bit more about Long Haul Capital? Like what kind of success or what kind of projects have you been proud of there? 

Puck (26m 55s): Yeah, I mean, we, again, long-haul capital, we created that so that we could catalyze walkable communities. And as we see that there are three basic components to making that happen. Number one is in the mortgage side of the house. Right now, 50% of the investment goes into about 1% of the landmass in the United States is considered walkable as a new norm. So there's an enormous price premium on that walkability. And so we're cracking the code on the mortgage side of it to open up the curtain. 

That'll open up the credit box, which all of a sudden it also incentivizes folks to start buying homes and we'll walk into places which, oh, by the way, according to national association rules are 60% of Americans see the attributes of walkability in the next housing purchase. And again, you know only one to 2% of the land masses are walkable. That's kind of weird. So there's a big disconnect between supply and demand. The second thing is how do you create more walkable communities? Well, we look at that not only from a need to reduce our carbon emissions and reduce the number of cars on the road and, you know, burning fossil fuels, but also because they will catalyze those communities. 

So we also invest in rails, particularly streetcar and light rail systems and learn there was a transit stop, you know, a quarter mile radius around that is an opportunity to just create more walkable, dense communities. And then the third thing is once those things are being created, you have to be able to support them with the types of infrastructure that makes sense, mostly district level infrastructure when you talk about energy, water, connectivity systems, both in last mile mobility, but also digital connectivity systems. 

So investing in those things that allow those walkable communities to thrive in a 21st century context. And so that those three basic components are what we've built our, our business model around. And so we're working on several different projects. We can or not get into those, but I mean, we're, we're cutting our teeth in Portland, Oregon museum of science and industry. We're looking to try to get a streetcar system up and running in Cleveland. 

And then so the district infrastructure thing we are, what we're really mostly focused on right now is cracking the code in revitalizing the mortgage industry, particularly using a FinTech solution that is focused on walkability. And so that's what we're doing right now and really providing transparency, consistency, most importantly, directing a huge volume of money that goes into the mortgage industry to really have a strategic impact on the way we live our lives in the United States and leveraging the mortgage industry to do that. 

Monica (29m 30s): That's interesting, but all with the vision of the urban walkable environment, which makes so much sense, I had no idea those statistics are kind of wild, that supply and demand is so off. 

Puck (29m 40s): Yeah, and so we're really keeping an old system on life support with really bad fiscal and monetary policy. It's crazy. It really is. And the cool thing is that a place like Serenbe cracks the code, not in a theoretical sense, but in a real physical sense. And I'd also throw in is one of the things that Steve was probably going to tell me to shut up about it. I think one of the most fascinating things about Serenbe is soil reclamation, as boring as that is. I mean, that is, to some people it’s boring, to me it gets me all lathered up. I mean, it's just talk about something. If you could take that science of soil reclamation, you start applying that to some of the more distressed urban environments across country. And yeah. Thinking about Cleveland, I'm thinking about places like Detroit, just think about what a game changer that would be in terms of wellness, in terms of solving food desert issues with just having kids grow up with a fair shot without having to deal with loving the soil, et cetera. And just as a little factoid, you know, we, a lot of focus on Flint and the water content in the water in Flint, Michigan, if you, and it's not a direct analogy, but you know, work with me here. 

But if you can do an equivalent comparison water, you know, and then the soil of Cleveland, but soil, Cleveland has three times more lead in it just on a comparative basis. Just the soil in the urban environment. And then just imagine what that's doing to kids. Just imagine what that's doing to, to, to wellness, not just public health, but long-term wellness of the various community, underserved communities here. I mean, that's a pretty simple thing that you could do is just start treating the soil. And guess what, urban kids getting connected to mother earth through dirt is probably a really cool thing to do. 

Steve (31m 31s): I have been listening, and Rodale Institute has announced now that they're going to put their Southeastern research center here. And as you know, they've been the leaders in soil and organic foods. So we're continuing to, to listen to you and, and put into practice demonstration areas. 

Puck (30m 50s): And that's what I love about Serenbe. It's not about yeah llet's talk about it, seeing what could possibly happen. It's just like, okay, this is a good idea. Let's go do that. That's what makes Serenbe special 

Steve (31m 59s): Then connecting that I just got back from a weekend with Children and Nature Network and was another friend of yours David Oar. Yeah. Have you seen the galleys for the new book he's doing? 

Puck (32m 16s): No, I have not

Steve (32m 17s): A whole nother conversation we'll have. 

Monica (32m 15s): Yeah, well that one's one that's coming out in February, so all focused on democracy. And I think one of the quotes from it is like, you know, we, we basically can't save the planet if we don't save democracy. 

Puck (32m 28s): Yeah. That’s a little bit on the front of my brain right now. What's going on. So that's, what's amazing about David Oar I don't think they got, the guy has a better shot at not breathing than he has not writing a book, I mean it’s just amazing how many books that guy can crank out.It’s all great stuff.  

Monica (32m 46s): Do you see anybody Puck or, and I know, you know, you already said, you know, we're sort of all looking for somebody to shine a light and really speak the truth. Right. And I know we're, we're having this really great conversation and Serenbe is a great example. And I think your book is a, is a really great place to start thinking about and being more thoughtful, but do you see leaders or places or non-profits, or that are doing the good work or that we should be looking into or following or supporting 

Puck (33m 20s): Yeah. Mayors. 

Monica (33m 22s): Mayors. 

Puck (33m 23s): Yeah, because mayors can't BS their way around problems like state capital has been national capital, you know mayors actually have to walk the street and look people in the eye and, you know, make hard decisions on priorities and resources but they also see the real ramifications things that no other policy makers can ignore specifically like climate change and stuff. You know, look at Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is a great example of what can happen, but just across the board, mayors get it, county council members for the most part, get it. 

And etiology is a really convenient thing was don't have to actually do anything, you know, pragmatic policy that has real impact on people's lives day to day and have that level of accountability, which equates to walking down main street and having someone stop you, you know, and they're your actual neighbor. I mean, again, you know, pointing back to what the Dotsville talked about, you know, the Americans traditionally have not waited around for someone to tell them what to do. 

They just see a problem set or they see an opportunity. They just get on, figure it out. And I think at the, at the city town level with mayors, that's where we see real action. You know, ans I mean, I do believe in, you know, in the private sector, third grade entrepreneurs out there that are trying to do the right thing, investors that are trying to do the right thing. We just have to figure out how to scale it. And I think the scaling factor would start with maybe at the state level, what would you see happening in various states? 

But at the end of the day, once you start getting to the level of states and at the national level it's going to have, as Eisenhower said, it's going to require a knowledgeable and informed citizenry to make sure that our instruments of government are acting in a matter of not only commensurate with our values, but are also delivering on our enduring interests to prosperity security. And that, to me, I know I focused on mayors. I just, I haven't meant hope in our citizenry that there'll be a wake-up call and then just won't be about the economy stupid, because right now we're just on our heroine high in terms of the economy where we've got a big, huge train coming our way, and it's not going to feel good when it hits, but hoping that our citizenry will wake up, have a moral awakening, but also have a functional awakening about what it's going to take. 

And yeah, it might take some sacrifice, get over in America, you know, suck it up. We've got some work to do that, so I don’t even know if that answered the question, but man, that felt good to say, thank you. It's like a therapy session. 

Monica (36m 10s): Oh good, good I like it. That's what we're here for. No, I think, I think that's a great answer. And I mean, and we talk a lot about, you know, what can you do? And I think there's a lot of fear or apathy or there's like confusion. So I just wanna put my head in the sand, but it is really like each of us has the power to make change. And like, even just back to economics, the pocket book, right. We can make change by how we purchase things, how we eat, where we choose to live. We do have a lot of influence. And so really being considered about being informed and making thoughtful decisions, I think is a huge part of it. 

Steve, do you have anything else to add about your relationship with Puck or Puck do you have anything else interesting. You want to tell us that you're working on outside of Long Haul? You doing another book by chance. 

Puck (36m 55s): Oh, me write another book. Probably never. I won't use my, I won't tell you my analogy because it's not, for me I like to draw cartoons. Yeah. It's always difficult for me to write, but I just keep thinking and it's important to constantly be perennially curious. And I, one of my biggest reasons for hangups with writing a book is that it just seems so dang final. 

You know, you haven't figured everything out yet, so it's hard to write something down when you know that isn't quite right yet. So that was a long way to say I know I’m not going to write a book.

Steve (37m 37s): Well, Puck I know, your son is now how old?

Puck (37m 41s): He's 19 and he's a sophomore at NYU Tisch film school. Proud of him there. Yeah. 

Steve (37m 48s): So it, it appears that the, the youth being a little discussion with our elder generation are stepping forward in a way that I cannot remember youth doing. I mean, I remember the sixties and it was more individual rights, whether, you know, sexual freedom and various things, but this is a group really looking at the global issues, I guess they've, they've grown up with it. And what are your thoughts on, on that movement and the voices coming forward? 

Puck (38m 17s): Yeah. They want us to keep going, they're reminding us what democracy is about, you know, after Parkland, what kids did, you know, and, and rising up and to have their voices heard, it was just inspiring me. Now. Some people said, you know, how, how dare they, those kids lecture us adults. Well, I said, well, you know what? Number one, they're absolutely right. And number two, we need to be lectured. You know, we absolutely need to be lectured. And what better voice? 

I mean, is there a future, you know, I'm glad that they're voicing their concerns about their future and the best part about coming out of such a horrible event, like Parkland was a political awareness of those kids to say, listen, we may not be able to vote now, but we are going to vote. That was a great message that just cut right to the heart of the issue. And I loved it. I loved it, brought tears to my eyes. 

Monica (39m 20s): They're like, get ready. We're recording this in December of 2019. And so we're going to date it, but you know, Gretta is on the cover is the Time person of the year, right? So that's an incredible statement. I, I was thrilled to see that I think was this morning and that makes me very hopeful that that topic will not go away. 

Steve (39m 42s): And hopefully we see numbers and this next election to show that this generation is coming out to vote because we've had a lot of empathy in the youth, once they get the right to vote and hopefully that's going to change to, to indicate that it is going to be a time of change. 

Puck (40m 1s): Absolutely. And if I could just throw one more thing, it's just, you know, we're all, you know, trapped somewhere. We came and I also have a, it's not about being in the military, that there's any great, you know, you don't have, I mean, you do get great insight, but it's not about that the military has the answer to everything, but I am also very hard by the strategy. We've got a lot of young Americans, men and women that served you a lot of, you know, a lot of them in combat are now getting their political voice and are joining, you know, at any level of government because that perspective of those that are in the military, it's about, first of all, it's about teamwork. 

It's about higher purpose, not about self and it's about service. And so I'm also heartened by the fact that we've got a generation that really know what it means to serve and what it really means to put everything on the line, to serve in all levels of government. So with these kids that are aware with a generation that's been tested through a time of war, and with that perspective, I do think, you know, we're going to be able to turn the corner. 

I'm hoping we can do it in time to have real effect on, on these big macro global systems, but it is something that we should all take heart in and, and be hopeful for. 

Steve (40m 26s): Puck, it's always inspirational talking with you and it, it always makes me want to do more and do it faster. So thanks for all the work you're doing and chatting with us today. 

Monica (41m 36s): Thank you so much Puck. Thanks for your time. 

Puck (41m 39s): Thank you. And thank you for Serenbe and the biophilic Institute. I mean, it's just, that's, inspiring. It's real and it's inspiring. So thank you. It was great talking to you guys. 

Steve (41m 49s): Okay. Bye-bye 

Jennifer (41m 54s): Okay. Wow. Okay. That was really super fascinating. I love the line he used that was like smart growth at home become a smart power abroad. Like he really just, just still the whole idea down into that one short sentence. For me, that was kind of groundbreaking. So much of politics. It was true in 2019 December and is true now, feels so knee-jerk. We have to get to a place where we're thinking about the long-term solutions that are going to create a healthy, thriving society that in turn makes us more respected and influential on the world stage. 

Monica (42m 28s): Yeah. And it occurred to me as I was relistening to this episode. Very interesting to get this perspective from someone in the military as well. You know, we don't often have that insight on an issue like climate or sustainability, where someone is really making the argument that this is our national security interest. You know, national security is so much deeper than having a stockpile of weapons. 

Jennifer (42m 48s): Yes. If we're healthy and living in harmony with the natural world, the natural systems, then it stands to reason that we are more secure people. 

Monica (42m 57s): Yeah. And it's also interesting to hear from him, you know, he pivoted from this military background to working in the private sector where he feels like he can be much more action oriented and make more tangible change. And I really liked his idea of shifting the mortgage industry of all things. Right. That was really intriguing. 

Jennifer (43m 14s): Yeah. It's amazing. As we dive into this topic of biophilia, it just touches so many areas that I didn't even really think about. I mean, our last episode was about clean beauty and how we become conscious consumers. And now we're talking about national security with a former Marine and the finance world, it's mind blowing. 

Monica (43m 31s): Yeah. It's pretty amazing. You know, I think there's endless applications, honestly, and more ways we can apply this idea of bringing things across diverse industries back into nature. And the more we can really pave the way and actually make change. 

Jennifer (43m 45s): Absolutely and I could not agree more. 

Monica (42m 47s): All right, guys. So head to the show notes and grab your tickets to the Biophilic Leadership Summit. We do have a special discount for listeners, and we'll see you back here in a couple of weeks.